Issues with defining Antisemitism and the 'problem' on The Left

[HoloDoc]

Considering the attacks on Corbyn by the media seem to have massively increased his popularity prior to last year's election, that is probably a really stupid strategy on the anti-Corbynist's part.

 

[Mouthwash]

That's fair. But, by what alternative criteria does the Labour Party appear to be institutionally anti-Semitic?

My purpose on this thread isn't to prove your Labor party antisemitic, it's to respond to the OP's nonsense.

Several Greek regimes through the nineteenth and twentieth centuries carried out aggressive campaigns of territorial expansion and ethnic cleansing, and many modern Greeks are descendants of the survivors of similar policies in neighboring countries. Like most of the former Hapsburg-Romanov-Ottoman world, its current appearance of ethnic homogeneity is the outcome of a genocidal century. We are not uncritical of the Hellenic Republic because we regard Greeks as entitled to their blood and soil in a way that Jews are not, but because that dust has settled and there's very little left to do but mourn.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is a mistake that the human race is still trying not to make. Analogies to mistakes which are now irreversible is not going to draw sympathy for your cause.

No, I do believe there's something called self-determination that most non-Marxists accept as valid, to varying degrees. Also, the demographic changes of the 1948 war were (A) driven by far less carnage and were far less complete than pretty much every other nationalist-driven transfer, and (B) are just as irreversible, so it's an interesting question why certain parts of the left fixate on them and believe they can be reversed (for instance, by telling people born in Syria that they are 'refugees' from Palestine).

 

[HoloDoc]

Hang on, a territorial settlement that is, at most, seventy years past, is irreversible?

 

[luiz]

Hang on, a territorial settlement that is, at most, seventy years past, is irreversible?

Jews have been there continually since antiquity. And how exactly would you "reverse" this "settlement" without some new Holocaust?

Can Europe "reverse" its non-European immigrant origin population? They are more recent than Israel...

 

[luiz]

The vast, vast majority (over 80%) of British Jews think there is an antisemitism problem in the Corbyn Labour Party.

There are countless testimonies of Jews who were lifelong members of Labour, even some who backed Corbyn until recently (see NYT article I posted last page), accusing him of antisemitism and of helping create a hostile environment in the Labour Party.

And yet the Corbyn fanboys think it's all good to dismiss the opinion of the near totality or British Jews on this subject, because clearly they know better than Jews what antisemitism looks like.

In this worldview, it's up to people like Traitorfish and the OP, self described anti-racists that they are, to explain to Jews what is anti-Semitism and why Corbyn does not fit the bill.

Just imagine for a second that we were dealing with blacks here. Near every single black person in the country saying this dude is racist and has caused a racist environment in his party, and supposed anti-racist crusaders say "nope, you're wrong, nothing to see here. Just propaganda from the left-wing press, you're dumb for falling for it".

 

[HoloDoc]

Jews have been there continually since antiquity. And how exactly would you "reverse" this "settlement" without some new Holocaust?

Can Europe "reverse" its non-European immigrant origin population? They are more recent than Israel...

It says a lot about an argument when you need to revert to a strawman to defend it.

 

[Ryika]

I find it interesting how this quote is peddled as "inexcusably antisemitic" in many places, when all he does is to criticize the behavior of a few people in the specific audience of the event that he was talking about.

This article from the Jerusalem Post for example completely omits the fact that Corbyn referred to a specific group of people in the audience and quote him as saying:

“Zionists … clearly have two problems. One is they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony either. They needed two lessons, which we could perhaps help them with.”

And then the article constructs an accusation of Antisemitism on that. So by the article's logic it follows that criticizing individual Zionists is Antisemitism. Victim Complex².

 

[Traitorfish]

My purpose on this thread isn't to prove your Labor party antisemitic, it's to respond to the OP's nonsense.

To clarify, then, you don't believe that the Labour is institutionally anti-Semitic?

No, I do believe there's something called self-determination that most non-Marxists accept as valid, to varying degrees. .

"International Social-Democracy stands for the recognition of the right of nations to self-determination." - V.I. Lenin

In this worldview, it's up to people like Traitorfish and the OP, self described anti-racists that they are, to explain to Jews what is anti-Semitism and why Corbyn does not fit the bill.

Wait, why am I being singled out? I don't even vote for Corbyn's party.

 

[luiz]

Wait, why am I being singled out? I don't even vote for Corbyn's party.

No, but you feel like you can teach the virtual totality of British Jews what anti-semitism really is like.

 

[Traitorfish]

No, but you feel like you can teach the virtual totality of British Jews what anti-semitism really is like.

Mouthwash isn't British, and my comment was an elaboration on a point made by Ajidica.

 

[luiz]

Mouthwash isn't British, and my comment was an elaboration on a point made by Ajidica.

I mean the general vibe of "Corbyn is not and has never done anything which can be called antisemitic and he has not allowed antisemitism to thrive in anyway in his party". Despite, you know, the near unanimous opinion of British Jews. But why should we listen to them on the topic of anti-semitism? Self-proclaimed anti-racist crusaders surely know best, right?

 

[Senethro]

A vibe you are peculiarly sensitive to.

 

[Traitorfish]

I mean the general vibe of "Corbyn is not and has never done anything which can be called antisemitic and he has not allowed antisemitism to thrive in anyway in his party". Despite, you know, the near unanimous opinion of British Jews. But why should we listen to them on the topic of anti-semitism? Self-proclaimed anti-racist crusaders surely know best, right?

What opinion?

The closest I've seen to "near-unanimity" was a YouGov poll which found that 83% of British Jews thought that Labour was "too tolerant of anti-Semitism". Nothing there to indicate that they thought that Labour was institutionally anti-Semitic, or that Corbyn personally is an anti-Semite. In fact, the figure fell from 87% to 83% under Corbyn's leadership- probably within a margin of error, but this would be a funny point in the conservation to become rigid about statistical interpretation. The same survey also found that about a third of Jews had similar feelings about the Greens, SNP and Liberal Democrats, but that has been no comparable scandals surrounding those parties.

The linked article also points that the survey itself is a little unreliable, as the sampling was based on the National Jewish Community Survey, which is self-selecting and therefore weighted towards conservative and religious Jews, so all of the above figures have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[luiz]

A vibe you are peculiarly sensitive to.

To be honest, no. I would expect the Jews to be far more insulted about his friendship with Hamas, for example, than his use of Zionist as a dog whistle and insinuations that Jews aren't really English. But I don't try to teach them what should insult them or not.

And I am indeed finding it interesting to see all the self-proclaimed anti-racist crusaders on the left dismissing the opinion of the virtual totality of a persecuted minority and trying to teach them what is real antisemitism and what isn't.

 

[Traitorfish]

"Jews think Corbyn was cloned from Hitler's lost testicle."
"Not all Jews think that."
"Oh, so now you know better than Jews?"

 

[luiz]

What opinion?

The closest I've seen to "near-unanimity" was a YouGov poll which found that 83% of British Jews thought that Labour was "too tolerant of anti-Semitism". Nothing there to indicate that they thought that Labour was institutionally anti-Semitic, or that Corbyn personally is an anti-Semite. In fact, the figure fell from 87% to 83% under Corbyn's leadership- probably within a margin of error, but this would be a funny point in the conservation to become rigid about statistical interpretation. The same survey also found that about a third of Jews had similar feelings about the Greens, SNP and Liberal Democrats, but that has been no comparable scandals surrounding those parties.

The linked article also points that the survey itself is a little unreliable, as the sampling was based on the National Jewish Community Survey, which is self-selecting and therefore weighted towards conservative and religious Jews, so all of the above figures have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Eh, that change is between 2016 and 17. In 2016 Corbyn was already the Dear Leader of the party. The number skyrocketed under Corbyn, so after September 2015, to the point where British Jews are now more than 4 time as likely to see an antisemitism problem in Labour than the Conservative Party, which is freaking enormous.

All British Jewish papers united to say the man is anti-semitic. Day after day a Jewish member of Labour, often even a former Corbyn supporter (see last page) will denounce him and break away with the party specifically because of him.

But what do any of them know? They're Zionists, so not even really English.

 

[luiz]

"Jews think Corbyn was cloned from Hitler's lost testicle."
"Not all Jews think that."
"Oh, so now you know better than Jews?"

So not a lot British Jews think Corbyn is an anti-semite, eh?

 

[Traitorfish]

So not a lot British Jews think Corbyn is an anti-semite, eh?

I don't have survey figures to show that. You don't have survey figures to show that. Neither of us do. That's the point. You're making accusations based on speculation and inference, and demanding that they be taken as self-evidently true until proven otherwise. It's a profoundly dishonest line of argument.

 

[Mouthwash]

To clarify, then, you don't believe that the Labour is institutionally anti-Semitic?

I don't know. I suspect that they are but I'm not prepared to argue it. There are hugely different varieties of antisemitism, which complicates things.

"Jews think Corbyn was cloned from Hitler's lost testicle."
"Not all Jews think that."
"Oh, so now you know better than Jews?"

So apparently tokenism doesn't apply to Jewish people.

 

[luiz]

I don't have survey figures to show that. You don't have survey figures to show that. Neither of us do. That's the point. You're making accusations based on speculation and inference, and demanding that they be taken as self-evidently true until proven otherwise. It's a profoundly dishonest line of argument.

I do have data to show that after Corbyn took over (which happened in 2015), over 80% of British Jews think there is an antisemitism problem is his party, a proportion which is more than 4 times higher the equivalent figure for the Conservative Party. The party which was historically the natural home of anti-semites.

Are over 80% of British Jews morons? Are they all duped by the Zionist press?

And what to say of all Jewish members of Labour who have been coming out in record numbers to express their frustration? They're all Zionist scum? What about the former Corbyn supporter whose article I linked to?

I mean, at what point will fanboys admit the hypothesis that maybe, just maybe, Corbyn isn't kosher?