It seems like the AI is cheating to get Great Prophets

[PendragonWRB]

Since the last two Civs I have played where heavily religion biased I have started making an effort to get a religion. With Spain I made a push to get third (of four) and I sacrificed a lot but got it. Last night with Alexander I tried to get third again but could not optimize enough with a few reloads so I decided to coast to an easy fourth, not sacrificing so much production.

My competitor was at +6 and I was only at +2 GPP, but I was ahead of them due to a project or two I had done. I did the math and saw I could skip building another project, and built a shrine instead to coast into fourth by a turn. I did NOT get the GP as the AI bought theirs one turn before me.

So I changed to building another project which would have me get the GP a handful of turns before my competitor, and on the very turn before my project would have completed, AGAIN they bought the GP out from under me. The ONLY way the AI could know to do that was by CHEATING, knowing what was in my production queue as my +2 GPP was several turns from finishing.

The ONLY way I could get the GP was to build the shrine instead and wait until I had enough gold to buy the GP myself, preventing the AI from cheating as it could not know when I would buy it unless it also watched my gold as well.

I feel this is dirty play by the AI, am I wrong about this?

 

[Browd]

Yeah, you are probably wrong about the AI. The AI has always spent gold to cover the GPP gap to buy GPrs, and players should consider doing it more often, rather than just relying on GPPs from holy sites, projects and shrines.

 

[MadDjinn]

yup. the AI will definitely spend it's faith and gold to buy a GP it wants. Nothing wrong to see here.

 

[PendragonWRB]

So why would the AI buy the GP several turns before it did on my previous replays? In both cases it bought the GP EXACTLY one turn before I would have got it myself. What prompted it to buy it several turns earlier than it had the last time?

I don't mind that the AI buys GPs, I mind that it certainly must be cheating by looking at my build queue.

 

[Browd]

The AI is just as aware of GPP progress as you are. Just check the Great People screen every turn and watch your competitors' progress.

 

[PendragonWRB]

I don't think you understand what I am saying. I have no problem if the AI watched my GPP and progress and buys one turn before I would finish 'naturally'. What this AI did was buy one turn before my project would have finished, jumping me forward 20, when I still had several turns moving only at my GPP pace.

So for example, I was at 70 of 80 with a GPP of +3.3 or something and my project was only 1 turn from completion and they buy on turn say 53.

In my previous reload they bought on turn 56 when I was 77 of 80. The AI behavior should not change because I decided to start a religious project that was about to finish.

 

[Browd]

Sorry to say, but I think these perceptions of AI "cheating" have no more basis in reality than AI "cheating" to snipe wonders from the human player. When the AI has enough faith or gold to close the gap to buy a GPr, they are likely to do so. But, if you want to believe the AI is "cheating," rock on!

 

[PendragonWRB]

The AI is an algorithm and does the same thing reload after reload unless the inputs are changed. Why would it decide to buy the GP 3 turns earlier than it did the last play through? It is not aware of me or anything I am doing, so unless it is cheating by watching my build queue it cannot know to buy at exactly the correct moment. My progress was actually worse than it was the previous reload so it should have had no incentive to spend MORE gold to get the GP unless it knew it was about to lose it.

And yes, the AI DID watch your build queue in V because it would build wonders and not finish them until it sensed you where about to.

 

[Browd]

Again, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. I do not share your beliefs.

 

[Lights]

Why wouldn't you believe the fact that the AI checked his building queue to know when to buy the prophet? I would think that's cheating from the AI.

How is it possible that the AI knows exactly when to buy the GP if the AI shouldn't know he is building a Holy Site Project.

 

[PendragonWRB]

You mean you refuse to look at the evidence. I spent an hour last night replaying seven or eight turns to learn the optimal approach to getting a religion and understanding the AIs behavior. Random events do not change on reloads. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand if you want.

 

[Lights]

Call me crazy but if the AI snatches my Great Prophet by buying before I fill the GP counter. I reload the same game. I build a Holy Site Project and the AI snatches it again just 1 turn before the Project finishes that means that the AI is cheating by checking the my Building queue.

 

[MadDjinn]

The AI is an algorithm and does the same thing reload after reload unless the inputs are changed. Why would it decide to buy the GP 3 turns earlier than it did the last play through? It is not aware of me or anything I am doing, so unless it is cheating by watching my build queue it cannot know to buy at exactly the correct moment. My progress was actually worse than it was the previous reload so it should have had no incentive to spend MORE gold to get the GP unless it knew it was about to lose it.

And yes, the AI DID watch your build queue in V because it would build wonders and not finish them until it sensed you where about to.

Actually this is untrue. The ai does not follow the exact same script every time. Even where it goes back to a previous 'seed' value, the moment you start making different choices you open up the ai to making different choices.

 

[Lights]

It's true, if the AI would have followed the same script as before he wouldn't have lost the Great Prophet since he would have built the Holy Site Project.

The problem is that it seems that the different choice the AI makes seems influenced by the Building List of my Civilization. Why does the AI have that information?

 

[MadDjinn]

Well, a simple example of seed manipulation would be the civrev game of the month. It was a single player puzzle. The starting seed for everyone was exactly the same, but by doing things in game, players are able to manipulate the seed which affected what the ai did. So while one player could do x y z and then walk into a near empty city on turn 5, another player, under the same starting seed, could find a full army there instead.

Tl;dr - player actions, regardless of if it affects the ai, change the seed and therefore produce different ai behaviour.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

You want to stop the AI from buying great people out from under you with gold? Sell them resources just before the point where they do it. Can't really stop the Faith buy though without resorting to military action.

 

[PendragonWRB]

But I have not met this mystery civilization yet, how can I influence it?

 

[PendragonWRB]

You want to stop the AI from buying great people out from under you with gold? Sell them resources just before the point where they do it. Can't really stop the Faith buy though without resorting to military action.

I am not trying to stop their buy, I am complaining about them KNOWING when to buy because my project is about to complete. I had to play a strategy myself to buy the first turn I could afford it, and give up on the final project as it tipped the AIs cheating hand.

 

[kaspergm]

It's not impossible that reloading and doing things differently has caused the AI to do things differently as well. Maybe a unit moved in another way, prompting a scout to change direction, finding some faith in a goody-hut, allowing it to buy the GP three turns before. It's not impossible ...

When that's said, I think there were some very well-documented instances of similar things happening in Civ5. Like AI building a wonder until it was 1 turn away from finishing, then changing to something else, until another player started to build the wonder, and then the AI would finish the wonder 1 turn before the player finishing it. I know someone reported following this with In-game editor and spies once. So ... I certainly don't find it unlikely at all that the AI is in fact choosing to buy the GP three turns before because it knows player is 1 turn away from finishing it ...

 

[Lights]

Well, a simple example of seed manipulation would be the civrev game of the month. It was a single player puzzle. The starting seed for everyone was exactly the same, but by doing things in game, players are able to manipulate the seed which affected what the ai did. So while one player could do x y z and then walk into a near empty city on turn 5, another player, under the same starting seed, could find a full army there instead.

Tl;dr - player actions, regardless of if it affects the ai, change the seed and therefore produce different ai behaviour.

Well, you still didn't answer how is it possible that player actions, that should be hidden from the AI knowledge, affect AI behaviour.