I've just tried a couple of archipelago games... wow!

ModernKnight

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I tried them for the hell of it, but it's cool how it changes the game in subtle but serious ways...
  • Since there is practically no fresh water or rivers, there may only be a few farms and one watermill on the whole map...
  • Which e.g. makes Communism much less important...
  • Replaced instead by tons of sea resources as the "extra" food that gets you growing...
  • Which is highly vulnerable to both sea and air attack in the event of war. Talk about a see-saw!
  • In my previous games with "regular" land, I rarely used Hospitals for healing. (I'd have a medic on the spot on land, and it was hardly worth moving.) But now, your islands are mixed in with the enemy's, and hospitals are often nearby...
  • Especially if you jump on a transport which brings you into a friendy healing town,
  • And troops continue to heal even if the transport moved.
  • Also, very few, if any, cities have the industry power of the usual continent-based powerhouses. Most cities only have a third the production capacity (more than half their territory is water). So you have to manage production more carefully, especially for Wonders. Even your best city is liable to take 40 turns for a Wonder.
All in all, a small idea ("let's try islands!") led to a lot of small but significant changes. Cool!
 
yea, and in an Archepelago game I did. I managed to develop a monopoly on oil :) the only oil was off the coast of my main island and one each on a few islands I settled and the big island that the other two civs were on had no oil! :) it was a tiny map though.
 
Exactly, Lord O... very important early in the game. Just as with production capacity, you also can't build as many towns. Something like those two Wonders can do, well, wonders. It may even significantly delay the tech that obsoletes them.

Actually, while Communism doesn't help your food, it still helps a lot with maintenance costs for your far-flung kingdom... the AI ignores a lot of little 2 mountain, 1 fish spots (for a while) that'll eventually make decent outposts, but will kill you in maintenance if you go for them all before Courthouse/Communism.

Biology and Beauracracy are also fairly worthless here, in stark contrast to a regular map.

Right James, that's another thing... if you rush when oil, uranium, and coal are discovered, you will have a chance to sit on quite a few of them. I'm also playing Tiny with two AIs, and me and one other AI have locked the third out of any oil or uranium. The third guy is currently the tech leader, but has no modern navy on a waterworld. (Rubs hands in glee.)
 
grammar police
you're using 'e.g.' improperly there if it's used for "ergo" ~ e.g.=for example (i.e.='that is . . .')
 
Lord O, I hadn't really thought it through until you mentioned it, but those two Wonders are so important, it's useful to take a closer look...
  • Colossus: +1 G all cities water tiles, 375 P, 2x w/Copper, requires Forge (Metal Casting), obsolete with Astronomy
  • Great Lighthouse: +2 trade routes in all coastal cities (=all cities w/Archipelago), 300 P, no 2x, requires Lighthouse (Sailing), obsolete with Corporation
GL will probably only add 2-5 G/turn per city in the early game, but Colossus has the potential to add 10 or even 12 G/turn. Then again, the Colossus doesn't last nearly as long... it starts later and ends earlier; on an ocean map, you can't delay Astronomy much. Also, copper is probably an absolute requirement just to have a chance to beat others to the Colossus, particularly on such a production-poor map (a.k.a., if you don't have copper, they undoubtedly do).

FWIW in my latest game, I made the GL but Peter the Great beat me to the Colossus... and he's still the tech leader late in the game, if that tells you something.

pholk, I did mean "for example", other examples being Biology and Beauracracy. Strictly speaking, I should've surrounded it with commas. Humblest apologies :bows: :)
 
In Civ 3, I thought Arch maps were the easiest to play but in Civ 4 I think it is Pangea. Isolation until Optics can be a real killer on an Arch map. In general if I am playing an Arch map I go for a culture win as that is the easiest to achieve from an isolated start.
 
yea, I'm not really used to making a large navy, so I prefer the stuff like Pangaea.
 
ModernKnight said:
I tried them for the hell of it, but it's cool how it changes the game in subtle but serious ways...
  • Since there is practically no fresh water or rivers, there may only be a few farms and one watermill on the whole map...
    <snip most of list>
All in all, a small idea ("let's try islands!") led to a lot of small but significant changes. Cool!

Yeah, islands does lead to a very different game. Other things that come up are the greater gold means techs come faster, and combined with the lower production it means many of the wonders that go obsolete are far less useful - wonders tend to get built a lot later (lighthouse and colossus are good though as you mention). The lack of fresh water also makes it much harder to use what few hills are available - if there isn't a food resource nearby you're stuck as you probably can't use farms to get the food you need to work the hills - and that rules out building workshops too. That means grass and plains tend to get exclusively cottaged which speeds up the tech research even more.

Another thing is the initial land-grab is slower (I don't think the AI copes as well on these maps) and indeed never really ends - there's so many islands that you probably wouldn't want to put a city on anyway that the land never really runs out (perhaps it does late in the game, I've not played to late game on tiny islands).

Bronze and iron are extremely valuable because they are rarer - you'll probably find several AI civs lacking them altogether.

I'm guessing (without having played through to try it) on this game, early conquest is a lot harder (slow to get enough troops to the enemy on galleys) as would be domination (you'd have to build so many cities to get enough islands into your borders). Culture is probably tricky too because you probably don't have the production to get build that many culture-generating buildings.

My only complaint (on 1.51, not tried latest patch so don't know if it's still true) is that the geography of the maps is so boring - the ocean totally covered in tiny islands. If the islands clustered, leaving some large expanses of empty sea, I think the maps would visually look a lot better.

Be interesting to have a GOTM on tiny islands... That'd really make a lot of players rethink their strategies.
 
On 1.61 (where I started playing) the islands aren't all 'tiny' -- I think I've had some 5-city islands, but my memory is poor (and, though I save my 'final position' maps, I'm not at home where those maps are).

DynamicSpirit said:
Be interesting to have a GOTM on tiny islands... That'd really make a lot of players rethink their strategies.
Game of the month? How does that work?
 
Which leader to use on island map? I guess Washington (Financial, Organized) would be ideal.
 
Armory, I've been playing on a Tiny map and in both games, it's tiny islands all over the place with coasts touching... for both these games, I could reach every single island with a galley (even pre-Open Borders), although sometimes you have to go a l-o-n-g way around some strips of ocean. Spirit, this is with 1.6, so the problem persists, at least for Tiny maps. I agree, it would not only look better, but make for more strategy/less swiss cheese, if it wasn't wall-to-wall splattered with islands.

Who's tried larger Arch maps... is there in fact a lot of isolation? That would really change things.

dalamb, yes I've seen a 5-city island before... wouldn't you know it, the AIs always seem to have much better luck with their start positions. (I'm playing Prince, if it matters.) But still, even the "big" masses are strung-out noodles rarely more than 3 wide at any one place.

Actually, that's one of the things that's made this so interesting for me - the swiss cheese of the map. I'm the type who likes to keep the capacity for war (barracks, drydocks), but not build a huge army until attacked or ready (=endgame, laugh). So on my first Arch game when an AI declared war, boom, within a few turns many of my resources were gone due to air raids (land) and both air and sea raids (water). I ultimately won in style because the AI is so lame on attacking (remember, these are almost all sea-borne attacks, so the AI is particularly lame; I just airdropped Mech Inf into the few cities I saw him going for), but it took dozens of turns to first build up a navy, then take out his cities in my midst (which were air attacking all my land improvements... all sea resources were long gone), get a "safe" back yard, then slowly swing that pendulum back my way.

I can understand playing different maps, but I played "regular" (continent) style forever and wanted to try something new. Next I'll try pangea.

You're right on target about food problems leading to windmills and cottages. Also, since there's less actual land, there are more city-placement compromises in terms of, you have to leave a crab behind to get a copper, or "arg, why's there sea tile right in the middle of all these beautiful resources?" Often this leads to little "clean up" cities once you get Communism to make the city maintenance almost a non-issue (then switch to something else after you're in high gear across the board).

In my games, there are usually about as many of the production resources (iron, copper, horses, uranium, etc.) as there are players, maybe a little more even, which means all players usually have many, if not most of the production resources, in my experience (Tiny, 3 players) - EXCEPT for stone and marble. Even on regular/continent maps, I've been seeing usually only 1 or 2 stone and marble. Are random maps always like this for stone and marble? What a PITA, lol. Other land-based health/happy resources are fairly few in number, which also limits folks, although if you cover a fair amount of ground and throw in a couple through trading, it's adequate.

Oh right, then there's the Culture issue. Culture does NOT cross water very well. I learned this the hard way when my second(!) city was only 3 tiles away from an Iron, but the city was on an isolated one-tile island (to reach Fish and Crabs on the other side). Lo and behold, an AI plants a city on the island with the Iron, TWO tiles away from my second city. (That's right, cities can be two tiles away if on separate land masses/islands.) On a regular/land map, a resource 3 tiles away from your second city in the game is usually yours for life unless the AI gets real lucky or dumb (in which case you out-culture him). Not on this map!!

Also, for anybody playing an Arch map (or any map, really), don't forget that a land resource has to be physically connected to your city, for your civ to "have" the resource. Your city can still use the resource tile as usual, but your civ doesn't get the resource unless connected to a city by road/railroad. So you can use weird little cities to block others from resources by a culture boundary overlap onto another island, but your civ won't get that resource if they're on separate land masses (=islands on an Arch map).

Zou, I hadn't thought about leaders; I'd been doing randoms. I'll have to consider it for one more Arch before I try Pangea.
 
pholkhero said:
grammar police
you're using 'e.g.' improperly there if it's used for "ergo" ~ e.g.=for example (i.e.='that is . . .')

Grammer Police-Police
Having taken Latin in high school, i can't let this slide. Actually 'e.g' is an abbreviation for 'exempli gratia'. "For example" is a decent translation. Better might be, "a good example". "Ergo" however, means 'therefore' (Cogito ergo sum = i think, therefore, i am).

'Who's policing the police? I dunno, the coast guard?'
 
Also on huge maps / archipel / islands (basically anything with a lot of water tiles) the Colossus can be even bigger than you think, cos it basically turns a non financial civ into a financial civ...and say 18 cities with 5 water tiles each = + 90 commerce per turn
 
imagod284 said:
Grammer Police-Police
Having taken Latin in high school, i can't let this slide. Actually 'e.g' is an abbreviation for 'exempli gratia'. "For example" is a decent translation. Better might be, "a good example". "Ergo" however, means 'therefore' (Cogito ergo sum = i think, therefore, i am).

'Who's policing the police? I dunno, the coast guard?'

Spelling police - you spelt "grammar" incorrectly.
 
ModernKnight said:
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GL will probably only add 2-5 G/turn per city in the early game, but Colossus has the potential to add 10 or even 12 G/turn. Then again, the Colossus doesn't last nearly as long... it starts later and ends earlier; on an ocean map, you can't delay Astronomy much. Also, copper is probably an absolute requirement just to have a chance to beat others to the Colossus, particularly on such a production-poor map (a.k.a., if you don't have copper, they undoubtedly do).

FWIW in my latest game, I made the GL but Peter the Great beat me to the Colossus... and he's still the tech leader late in the game, if that tells you something.

:)

The key to get Colossus is not about having copper because it is a relatively cheap wonder (copper certainly helps), it is about getting metal casting early enough and locating a coastal city with enough production. If you use Oracle to get metal casting you'll 99% able to have it. GL is sometimes more a problem.

I find Qin particularly strong on archipelago games. Financial is the no. 1 trait in this map. Industrious helps all these great wander races. Even he doesn't start with Fishing, this tech is just so cheap to get anyway. Leaders with expansive or organized trait also helps because of the cheap granary or lighthouse. Quickly expanding cities + whip is just fun.
 
I also like maps with a lot of water but the problem is that there are so a few naval units that at the end you will finish to be bored by these maps.
 
You may want to look at the JOE-01 SG game (link in my sig). There weren't any Arch Island SG's at the time and I wanted to experiment with naval warfare. It was a great game (we stomped it though, being Noble).

Well worth a read if you have a spare couple of days.
 
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