James Bulger

Borachio

Way past lunacy
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/12/james-bulger-father-cant-forgive-killers

Father, Ralph, of 3 year old James Bulger, who was kidnapped and murdered by two 10 year old boys twenty years ago today, cannot forgive his son's murderers nor, apparently, himself.

Here's a tale to make you weep.

Ralph Bulger described the lifelong pain he and his family had experienced since his two-year-old [I think this is a mistake] son was abducted, tortured and murdered by Robert Thompson and Jon Venables.


"It's always there. It always comes back. I still feel the same, but I think you just learn to live with it a bit, just live with the pain,"

James was taken from his mother at the Bootle Strand shopping centre by Thompson and Venables on 12 February 1993, after she was paying for some meat and turned around a moment later to find him gone.


The two boys were tried at Preston crown court in November 1993 and convicted of murder. They were both freed from secure children's homes eight years later. In 2010, Venables was sentenced to two years in prison for the possession and redistribution of indecent images of children.


The killers were treated too leniently, said Bulger. "They didn't just kill James," he said. "They tortured him and they mutilated him. For them to be like that at such a young age … They're older now, imagine what they could do now. If they're not getting watched all the time what's to stop them trying to take one of our kids again?"


He added: "What they did was just evil and they shouldn't be in society."


Bulger said too many people had sided with the killers after the trial. "It seemed like after the trial they couldn't really do anything wrong," he said. "The powers that be, they have the last say. I have got no say at all."


Bulger described how his marriage to James's mother, Denise, had disintegrated after James's death. "It ripped us apart, I just didn't know how to deal with it. I still don't really," he said.

Bulger has written a book about the impact of his son's murder on his own and his family's life.


"Sometimes you feel like you're having a heart attack. It's just a big knot in your chest and that's been there since day one," he said. "I don't think it's a pain you can heal. I think it's with you for life. It's been with me since it's happened … It's always there."

The radio programme interview with Ralph Bulger describes him as being full of self-loathing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
 
How are you meant to discuss this other than stating the obvious by saying that it's a tragedy and the people responsible probably were punished too leniently?
 
The two murderers very much proved that they were not humans by committing this horrific act and should have been put down. If a dog or other animal kills a human child it is put down, and thus so should have these primatoids. Allowing them back into our human society is despicable.
 
I don't know. What struck me is the man's attitude to all this. How it's totally destroyed his life. When he was in no way responsible at all. He wasn't even present when the boy was kidnapped.

How could this man have "moved on" from this?

Was it a good idea for him to write a book about it?

How would you react to something like this?

This case attracted intense media interest at the time. And is frequently ressurected.
 
The two murderers very much proved that they were not humans by committing this horrific act and should have been put down.

Killing kids is generally the remit of the most loathsome criminals rather than the job of the state. Do you honestly believe that they were born bad? I haven't heard much about this story in a while but I remember reading that the killers were themselves abused, beaten and had terrible parents who, no doubt, turned them into what they are. Does that excuse them? No. But neither does it excuse killing children out a primitive sense of justice.

What struck me is the man's attitude to all this. How it's totally destroyed his life. When he was in no way responsible at all.

Grief rarely makes sense. I felt guilty when my grandad died of cancer due to being a pack a day man.
 
Killing kids is generally the remit of the most loathsome criminals rather than the job of the state.

The murderers ceased being kids when they themselves tortured and murdered a child. Humans don't do that. No human does that.
 
The murderers ceased being kids when they themselves tortured and murdered a child. Humans don't do that. No human does that.
What garbage. Humans have been torturing and murdering each other for thousands of years, often for no better reason than someone told them to do it.
 
Maybe if you hound them enough then they'll top themselves like their father did after being [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186431/Father-killed-hate-mob-wrongly-accused-James-Bulger-child-killer-Robert-Thompson.html]wrongly accused[/URL]

It's not up to the public to decide how criminals are convicted because they'll make rash decisions based on scanty evidence. If you want to bring back a death penalty for certain crimes then I would agree, but for 10 year olds? There's worse things than death and having to live your life knowing what you did and what people think of you would be one of them.
 
There's an error, if you'll excuse me. It wasn't their father, but someone who happened to be a father, mistaken for one of the murderers by a lot of ignorant people.
 

The sad irony being that the state's refusal to reveal their hidden identities are what led to the father's death? :(

It's not up to the public to decide how criminals are convicted because they'll make rash decisions based on scanty evidence. If you want to bring back a death penalty for certain crimes then I would agree, but for 10 year olds? There's worse things than death and having to live your life knowing what you did and what people think of you would be one of them.

I think the magnitude of a case such as this nullifies their age.

They purposefully (with direct intent in law terminology) set out to torture and murder a young child for their own amusement.
 
The sad irony being that the state's refusal to reveal their hidden identities are what led to the father's death? :(

I don't think that's what caused his death at all. I think that was due to him being hounded by a lot of ignorant people. He was 10 years older than the murderer, for goodness sake.
 
Children can be incredibly evil. A tiny sample of this can be seen in playground bullying; a lot of kids are tormented for one reason or another by their peers. In Sierra Leone, child soldiers were reportedly the nastiest of the bunch; they'd find pregnant women, place bets on the gender of the fetus, and them remove it with a bayonet. Thankfully very few children ever do things like this.

But anyway, I suppose one of the purposes of this thread is to discuss punishment, rehabilitation, or somesuch. I'm torn on the issue. I would like to see these monsters executed, but I've become disillusioned with the death penalty as of late. It struck me that people who live in a society together really ought not kill each other. Sounds obvious enough, I know, but this time it sunk in a bit, rather than being some vague idea that I accept but don't fully understand or think about.

The following is a long series of my thoughts on the matter. It's long, and I know a lot of people live to criticize others for sport, so I spoilered it. And how do you put those little explanations for the spoilers right next to the spoiler button?

Spoiler :
After all, say there's a problem in a family. Suppose an adult son does something wrong, like murder. Would his own parents seek to kill him? Probably they would not. Yet if, say, these parents were in the jury of a court trying a stranger for murder, would they be more likely to support execution? I think so. In other words, supposing that these assumptions are realistic, people are more likely to kill or wish dead someone if that person has also committed the crime of being born to a different family. This strikes me as unjust.

And it seems to me that all too often, justice is almost indistinguishable from revenge. When people push for the death penalty or other harsh punishments, it's usually because they want to exact revenge on the offender, and they want to cause them suffering. This seems like it's incompatible with a truly civilized, just, and pleasant society. And frankly, I'm tired of seeing revenge in movies, books, games, and so on. It seems like killing someone who did someone harm is the dominant theme these days, to the point that there's actually a TV show called "Revenge". This has slowly gotten to me, not only because it's overdone and totally uncreative, but also because it seems at odds with civilized society.

Then there's the argument that there are better alternatives to the death penalty. Life imprisonment, for one. You're taking away a person's freedom and forcing them to live in captivity under the conditions of your choosing. Forever. That's quite a punishment. Exile was preferred to this in earlier times, when most people died near where they were born, community was everything, travel was tough, life was harsh, and successfully living in a foreign land was difficult. But with today's technology and globalization, exile would not be as bad, and in any case we'd now be worried about dumping some criminal on somebody else- or having them do the same to us.

I think that the best form of justice is that which repairs the damage done, and perhaps punishes the guilty party to dissuade them from doing it again. With theft, the property or, failing that, an equivalent amount of money should be returned, and the thief should apologize and perhaps do some service for the victim or society. Simply imprisoning the thief doesn't solve anything, especially considering the awful prisons in the US.

But restitution isn't possible in the case of murder. Nothing you do can bring back the dead. So then what? Just killing the killer after a fair trial and conviction solves little apart from maybe satisfying the bloodthirsty if understandable rage of the victim's kith and kin. Maybe paying for the funeral, working to make up for any loss of income to the family, and then performing a lifetime or a few decades of hard, useful service to the community and/or the victim's loved ones would be the most just option. But this would lay harsher penalties for killing a high-earning person than one who is unemployed, it's almost inconceivable that any service the murderer does could possibly compensate for lost income, there's not much in the way of useful community service that a convict could do for that long, the family would likely not want anything to do with the murderer of their loved one, and this system of community service could lead to states getting courts to hand out more murder convictions in order to supply a slave labor force; in fact, this is exactly what happened during Reconstruction.

So it seems like that's not much of an option. A long prison sentence might be better. But first, we'd have to clean up our prisons. As it now stands, they're hellish concentrations of criminals, where rape and murder run rampant, gangs are formed, and bad men often get worse. They're expensive, dangerous, and possibly counterproductive. I had an idea, possibly a naive one, for reform. In it, prisoners would start out with no amenities save the basics, bathrooms, and health care. No bed, no entertainment, no exercise. In order to earn these things, prisoners would have to do work within the prison, which would earn them money that was only valid tender within the prison. With it they could buy for themselves more and better things, like beds, magazines, books, cigarettes, beer, and other relatively inexpensive and basic things. This would show that honest work can lead to a better life. They could also do work like training dogs and planting their own gardens, which are useful, enjoyable things; dealing with dogs often cheers people up, and gardening would give them the satisfaction of seeing their work bear fruit. Punishments within the prison could include the confiscation of money and amenities. Those who commit rape and murder within the prison would be much more harshly punished.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
For one thing having a "Law" never settles anything. Humans cannot contain themselves within a law framework. Laws while idealistic can never be kept by all and thus in that reference are unfair. One who holds to laws simply have to keep them even if that means ending a human life. It is human nature to do away with every thing they object, or everything that objects to their way of life. That is the seed of hatred, bigotry, racism, and all other forms of putting one's own interest first. A Law is simply an ideological outgrowth of this by holding at bay that which one is objecting.

If one is going to keep the law, they have to be willing to hold even their own to such a law or they would nullify the law for all. That is why laws do not stand for long, because they are so easily nullified, but yet kept by sacrificing the freedom of all.
 
I genuinely believe that due to their age they should receive a far more lenient punishment with a focus on rehabilitation into the community. I also agree with their identities being a secret.

I'm a little too tired to exhaustively give my justifications but I am interested as to whether others agree.
 
I agree with you 100%.

And not even just because they were kids. If we can't exercise forgiveness and be understanding towards one another then I think we're going to remain a violent species for a very long time.
 
This is complicated.

But the salient features for me are:

1. How Ralph Bulger is meant to recover from this himself. Why, after 20 years, is he filled with self-loathing? The other major case involving child murder was Ian Brady, and I recall that he is still refusing to reveal the location of one of the graves, the child's mother concerned is still consumed with hatred for Brady. Something that affects Brady not one little bit, but which has blighted the whole of her own life.

2. The number of victims in this: James Bulger, his parents, his murderers, the suicide mistaken for one of the murderers, the people who hounded him, and the wider society as a whole.

Spoiler spoilerage comments are put in the same way as those for quotes: with an equals sign after SPOILER :
The only sector to profit from it in any way has been the media. (Oh, and if I recall correctly from some previous topic on a similarly sad topic, I myself profit from the attention I receive from forum members because of it. And if I get accused of that again... Am I a psychic vampire or something, eh? I do, though, think it's important to consider the whole spectrum of human experience.)
 
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