Japan for the first two ages.

[Patine]

When I designed my Japanese Civilization for my own CIv7 Headcanon, I gave them a unique promotion system, where Ashigaru is the lowest promotion level and Samurai the highest.

Feudal Japan was not a good environment for social mobility and meritocratic promotion. There was ONE Shogun born to peasant roots - and then he outlawed the possibility forward.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Feudal Japan was not a good environment for social mobility and meritocratic promotion. There was ONE Shogun born to peasant roots - and then he outlawed the possibility forward.

Promotion systems also work differently in my headcanon I didn't specify because it was 1 am when i typed that out and it didn't seem relevant to the topic

Other Civs have their units upgrade from Regular into Veteran into Elite levels, but Japan's unit's do not have that feature. Their two promotion levels don't upgrade into each other naturally, but have expanded (broader) promotion trees. Ashigaru can be promoted into Samurai, but at a MASSIVE cost of diplomatic currency, or by retraining them in a city with a Dojo, and the second option loses all of earned promotions (but retains the xp).

So no, it's definitely NOT a case of "knighting" lower class soldiers into upper class ones. (this is actually a mechanic of the French Civ :X) You can train both, independently and they each have different advantages. Sorry if it that part was unclear.

It's part of a greater design, which I could elaborate on further in PM if you're interested. Here though, I think it's best to continue the discussion for what could actually happen in Civ7, rather than on one of my many, many spreadsheets.

 

[PorkBean]

I really dislike the [Prefix + Country] naming convention that Humankind sometimes used, so I don't want to see anything like "Edo Japan". "Meiji Japan" is already clumsy enough and inconsistent with other civs. Personally I think they could get away with using the dynastic name of the Shogun, eg. "Ashikaga" or "Tokugawa" for an Exploration Japan.

As for Antiquity - since they've gone with Himiko as the leader, I'm of the opinion they should commit to Yamatai despite the location dispute. There's plenty in the Gishi Wajinden and other Chinese texts to go on for uniques. "Yayoi" is a proto-historical period and a neighbourhood in Tokyo, not the name of an ancient polity.

 

[Patine]

I really dislike the [Prefix + Country] naming convention that Humankind sometimes used, so I don't want to see anything like "Edo Japan". "Meiji Japan" is already clumsy enough and inconsistent with other civs. Personally I think they could get away with using the dynastic name of the Shogun, eg. "Ashikaga" or "Tokugawa" for an Exploration Japan.

As for Antiquity - since they've gone with Himiko as the leader, I'm of the opinion they should commit to Yamatai despite the location dispute. There's plenty in the Gishi Wajinden and other Chinese texts to go on for uniques. "Yayoi" is a proto-historical period and a neighbourhood in Tokyo, not the name of an ancient polity.

It is a convention of naming used very commonly in actual historiography, as is, though.

 

[notNamed]

Feudal Japan was not a good environment for social mobility and meritocratic promotion. There was ONE Shogun born to peasant roots - and then he outlawed the possibility forward.

You're thinking of Hideyoshi I mentioned previously. He was never a shougun precisely because he was born a peasant. He was given the title of a Kanpaku instead as the next best thing.
Obviously stemming from that, he could not outlaw something that wasn't possible in the first place. What he did was issue a Sword Hunt Decree (shoutout to any Genshin players in the audience who get the ref) the purpose of which was to demilitarise the populace at large. Not really targeting peasant upstarts in particular.

On an unrelated but possibly interesting note, during Edo period a non-aristocrat (百姓) could become a samurai if they bought the status from one. Just to further cement the fact that peasant becoming something more wasn't necessarily something Hideyoshi or Tokugawa explicitly forbade.

I really dislike the [Prefix + Country] naming convention that Humankind sometimes used, so I don't want to see anything like "Edo Japan". "Meiji Japan" is already clumsy enough and inconsistent with other civs. Personally I think they could get away with using the dynastic name of the Shogun, eg. "Ashikaga" or "Tokugawa" for an Exploration Japan.

The prefix naming is fairly standard as far as historical discussions go. Papers and documentaries alike talk about "Tudor England" and "Victorian England/Britain", etc.
It's also consistent by naming the states rather than people/civilisation ("Aksum", not "Aksumites" or "Aksumite Civilisation").

 

[PorkBean]

It is a convention of naming used very commonly in actual historiography, as is, though.

True, but not a common convention for the names of states during their existence. I'd argue there's an immersion/roleplaying element to a game like civ, and using a historiographical term for a nation you're actively ruling hurts that.

 

[Patine]

True, but not a common convention for the names of states during their existence. I'd argue there's an immersion/roleplaying element to a game like civ, and using a historiographical term for a nation you're actively ruling hurts that.

So, what do we call the Mississippian civ?

 

[notNamed]

So, what do we call the Mississippian civ?

Khmer (called it some form of Cambodia), Mississipians (archeological moniker from being recognized around Mississipi), Maya (name of post-classical northerners, only in modern times adopted to refer to all related cultures and living populations),...

But from PorkBean's perspective, he's only peeved by the extra moniker, I believe. Maya is fine, Glorious Maya or Mayan Kingdom are also fine, but Classical Maya would be NG.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Khmer (called it some form of Cambodia), Mississipians (archeological moniker from being recognized around Mississipi), Maya (name of post-classical northerners, only in modern times adopted to refer to all related cultures and living populations),...

But from PorkBean's perspective, he's only peeved by the extra moniker, I believe. Maya is fine, Glorious Maya or Mayan Kingdom are also fine, but Classical Maya would be NG.

the term 'Cahokians' aren't used here. while Cahokia is the beginning of them

 

[PorkBean]

Yeah, it's just the extra moniker. In my eyes it's like literally calling the Egyptian civ "Ancient Egypt" - they're obviously not ancient to themselves. When in the case of "it's the best we have" then I can suck it up, but I think we can divide Japan up into historical time periods while avoiding the use of adjectives.

 

[Patine]

Yeah, it's just the extra moniker. In my eyes it's like literally calling the Egyptian civ "Ancient Egypt" - they're obviously not ancient to themselves. When in the case of "it's the best we have" then I can suck it up, but I think we can divide Japan up into historical time periods while avoiding the use of adjectives.

But, if it's based on self-reference compared to historiography, one's standard is inconsistent.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I really dislike the [Prefix + Country] naming convention that Humankind sometimes used, so I don't want to see anything like "Edo Japan". "Meiji Japan" is already clumsy enough and inconsistent with other civs. Personally I think they could get away with using the dynastic name of the Shogun, eg. "Ashikaga" or "Tokugawa" for an Exploration Japan.

I'm not sure I personally see the difference, or reasoning, behind calling it "Tokugawa Japan" or "Edo Japan". They might just go for "Edo" only because of the possibility of Tokugawa showing up as a leader.
Though I've also mentioned they could just go with the name "Shogunate Japan" if they want to encompass different attributes of each into one civ.

the term 'Cahokians' aren't used here. while Cahokia is the beginning of them

The Cahokians were just the largest and most influential group, but they still aren't encompassing of the whole Mississippian culture.

 

[notNamed]

The Cahokians were just the largest and most influential group, but they still aren't encompassing of the whole Mississippian culture.

Ahem, Cahokia, like Mississipians, is just an archeological moniker.
The actual city, assuming it had a name, would have been called something else. We don't know if it had a name, what it was if it existed, nor even what language it would even be in. Ditto for the people(s) living in it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ahem, Cahokia, like Mississipians, is just an archeological moniker.
The actual city, assuming it had a name, would have been called something else. We don't know if it had a name, what it was if it existed, nor even what language it would even be in. Ditto for the people(s) living in it.

Well yes. Just pointing out to Lonecat that using the name "Cahokian" isn't any better than using the name Mississippians. In fact, the Mississippian culture didn't originate from Cahokia anyways.

As far as Japan goes, they'll have to give some sort of prefix name if they decide to have for more than one age. I don't have a preference. I feel indifferent towards the names similar to Spain/Castille and Prussia/Germany. As long as the civ design conveys the name it's fine.

 

[Evie]

And as far as we know the Cahokia people were likely not the original inhabitants of Cahokia. They were the inhabitants of the region at the time the Europeans found the mounds. So, the name not only doesn't describe *all* Mississippians, it likely does not describe any Mississippian at all, and is not the açtual name of the city.

So, all in all, Cahokia is actually a pretty terrible Mississippian name.

 

[PorkBean]

I'm not sure I personally see the difference, or reasoning, behind calling it "Tokugawa Japan" or "Edo Japan". They might just go for "Edo" only because of the possibility of Tokugawa showing up as a leader.
Though I've also mentioned they could just go with the name "Shogunate Japan" if they want to encompass different attributes of each into one civ.

The Cahokians were just the largest and most influential group, but they still aren't encompassing of the whole Mississippian culture.

"Edo" would presumably be the capital city, so I don't think also naming the state "Edo" would be a good idea. I think I'd possibly be fine with "Tokugawa Shogunate" since that's sorta-consistent with "French Empire". But then I'd start to wonder why Abbasid has no "Caliphate", Spain and Russia have no "Empire" etc. I guess consistency is already out of the window at this point and the game isn't even out.

 

[Naokaukodem]

since that's sorta-consistent with "French Empire". But then I'd start to wonder why Abbasid has no "Caliphate", Spain and Russia have no "Empire" etc.

I think that "French Empire" refers directly to Napoleon's conquests, and the revolution he continued through those conquests. You could argue that U.S.S.R. (though this name speaks for itself) did the same, but maybe not simply "Russia" ?

 

[Black Gate]

If so where should Japan begins in Age I?

Heian, obviously. It's by far the most interesting period of Japanese history before the shogunate and the one we have the most information on. People have generally been in agreement that Unified Silla (668-935) should represent antiquity Korea, why wouldn't we choose Heian (794-1185) Japan? It's especially fitting if you ignore the Insei period (1086 onwards) where Fujiwara influence over the emperor waned, and society set itself up for the Genpei War.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Heian, obviously. It's by far the most interesting period of Japanese history before the shogunate and the one we have the most information on. People have generally been in agreement that Unified Silla (668-935) should represent antiquity Korea, why wouldn't we choose Heian (794-1185) Japan? It's especially fitting if you ignore the Insei period (1086 onwards) where Fujiwara influence over the emperor waned, and society set itself up for the Genpei War.

I could see some elements of the earlier Nara period being incorporated in, like potential Kojikiki and Nihon Shoki Codices.
But I agree that for the most part it should be Heian Japan, with an emphasis on Culture and acquiring Codices (Writing) through unique Great People.

 

[Black Gate]

I could see some elements of the earlier Nara period being incorporated in, like potential Kojikiki and Nihon Shoki Codices.
But I agree that for the most part it should be Heian Japan, with an emphasis on Culture and acquiring Codices (Writing) through unique Great People.

Exactly my thoughts. A cultural focus in a time where court culture was obsessed with poetry and learning, with an opportunity to drop names like Sei Shonagon, Murasaki Shikibu, and a whole host of Fujiwaras. I could see some sort of bonus for the capital with a small malus for towns, and parts of Asuka/Nara culture especially to represent the growing influence of Buddhism.