Japan's Kit

HeroOfTheSword

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Hi all, so I've just played a few games with Japan and obviously went Authority first, and then Imperialism later on, culminating in three different starts all ending in disaster, always falling way behind in tech and not being able to make any impact with an army, even with god of war, zealotry, hero worship and warrior monk picked as beliefs as well as wonders that should bolster things like terracotta etc. So this latest game I've tried a different tact; going Progress to get expansion up and running early and then Artistry to bolster great works and by god it's miles better! I am actually enjoying the kit now although I still think the faith and culture on defensive buildings is rather pointless and wondered if that is something that could be changed?

I've seen a few proposals over the last year that seem to want to drastically alter the kit, many of them fun alterations, especially the unique forge by @Legen, but I'm thinking now that might be going too far? Would love to hear peoples thoughts on this!

Apologies in advance if I'm rehashing another thread, I can of course delete this if mods aren't happy with it.
 
Here are the proposals from the last congress
 
Hi all, so I've just played a few games with Japan and obviously went Authority first, and then Imperialism later on, culminating in three different starts all ending in disaster, always falling way behind in tech and not being able to make any impact with an army, even with god of war, zealotry, hero worship and warrior monk picked as beliefs as well as wonders that should bolster things like terracotta etc. So this latest game I've tried a different tact; going Progress to get expansion up and running early and then Artistry to bolster great works and by god it's miles better! I am actually enjoying the kit now although I still think the faith and culture on defensive buildings is rather pointless and wondered if that is something that could be changed?

I've seen a few proposals over the last year that seem to want to drastically alter the kit, many of them fun alterations, especially the unique forge by @Legen, but I'm thinking now that might be going too far? Would love to hear peoples thoughts on this!

Apologies in advance if I'm rehashing another thread, I can of course delete this if mods aren't happy with it.
What difficulty? what era is the most struggle and with how many cities?

I prefer rationalism over imperialism in 99% of the cases as wide warmonger (starting auth>fealty).
So much tile yield science, happiness and bonuses from great works (which matters since you grab from the AI).
Hero worship is nice as Japan but even for them not a must have, there are other solid options for wide (which also provides science).
(warrior monk is a mod or misspell?)
 
I've been playing a lot of Japan lately and having a rough go. But it's partly because I have some specific things I want to do and if they don't work out it makes me want to abandon the attempt. On Immortal/standard/standard my plan is:

-Authority/Artistry/Imperialism
-protection -> hero worship
-sufficient iron to spam Samurai early (5+ is ideal)

Authority starts can be the most hit or miss for me- you're a bit at the mercy of good barbarian camp luck and maybe having some nearby CSs to bully. So some % of games get rough right off the bat if Barb camps are sparse.

Protection is an easy grab- I've hardly ever missed it. But man is hero worship a beloved AI pick. I got beat to it by Ghandi of all people last game. It seems to go within the first 3 picks pretty often, so getting it as Japan isn't a given at all... my success rate is probably 50% or so. I typically won't quit here as long as the AI that got Hero Worship is at least close enough for me to attack first.

And then there's iron, which having in abundance doesn't seem all that common. A lot of games I'll have maybe 1 deposit in reach so just a few yields. There's CSs or trading as other sources but those aren't very reliable. Not being able to capitalize on Samurai feels bad.

There's also the early tech path reaching for walls and then iron early on. Having plantation or sea luxes is really inconvenient tech wise.

All of these taken together mean it's pretty easy for the plan to go wrong. To which you might say: boohoo- adapt, be flexible! And I can see your point. In terms of just trying to win the game, yes- flexible adaptation would be the answer.

But it just feels wrong to me to play Japan any other way, and less fun. The kit screams "go authority/imperialism, get hero worship, war your way to promotions and generals/admirals!". I mean- the kit is "buy 2 get 3 free" GG/GA into Artists/Writers/Musicians, how can you not pick the policy trees that let you buy GG/GA with faith or the founder that gives you tons of points towards them when you conquer a city? Why bother playing as Japan if you aren't going to lean into the kit? At that point, wouldn't most other civs be better choices to open with progress or to pick a different founder with?

In terms of possible changes, I wonder if a source of iron attached to walls could be reasonable/feasible? +1 iron from walls would make Samurai very consistent, no idea if there is any historical justification for it though. As for Hero Worship, that seems like more of a weird AI oddity- I can't fathom why Ghandi would pick it so highly or why it's favored by AI generally. I would think it should be picked only by high aggression AI civs and even then it's a bit of a risky "win more" type pick for an AI.
 
Update:

I ran a few more games. Hero Worship went first or second pick every time, so I was missing out on it by 5-10 turns typically founding ~t90.

I think the play might be to just forget about religion with Japan. Maybe go Monument first to open authority sooner and start farming barbarians quicker. Can still often get Protection as your pantheon. It just takes a lot of sacrifice to try to found ASAP and most of the time you still don't get Hero Worship anyway. Instead, focus on Iron -> Samurai and faith later on is just for buying GG/GA. Unless something changes with the AI's love of Hero Worship it's probably for the best to just skip it.
 
I find opening Japan with Tradition instead of Authority makes for a more stable early game.
You don't really get any unique perks with barb clearing anyway.
 
I find opening Japan with Tradition instead of Authority makes for a more stable early game.
You don't really get any unique perks with barb clearing anyway.
You can get great general points by clearing barb camp quests for city states
 
Japan doesn't benefit from Authority that much. Just get To the Glory of God if you want to buy generals and admirals.
 
In terms of possible changes, I wonder if a source of iron attached to walls could be reasonable/feasible? +1 iron from walls would make Samurai very consistent, no idea if there is any historical justification for it though. As for Hero Worship, that seems like more of a weird AI oddity- I can't fathom why Ghandi would pick it so highly or why it's favored by AI generally. I would think it should be picked only by high aggression AI civs and even then it's a bit of a risky "win more" type pick for an AI.
Nice idea although this is where I think the Iron would be more accurately applied to a forge since historically it was their Samurai swords which were so expertly wrought. I'd even propose a kind of master forge unique building to replace the Heroic Epic where you get something like +5 iron instantly when constructed which would kick start your war mongering. You could then possibly get rid of the Dojo altogether, adding their bonus's to this one unique forge. You would be losing out on creating units with the bonus's throughout the empire but maybe the +5 iron would help offset that, although maybe it wouldn't be enough.

Coincidentally I also had a recent game where Gandhi went for Hero Worship 🤦‍♂️

But it just feels wrong to me to play Japan any other way, and less fun. The kit screams "go authority/imperialism, get hero worship, war your way to promotions and generals/admirals!". I mean- the kit is "buy 2 get 3 free" GG/GA into Artists/Writers/Musicians, how can you not pick the policy trees that let you buy GG/GA with faith or the founder that gives you tons of points towards them when you conquer a city? Why bother playing as Japan if you aren't going to lean into the kit? At that point, wouldn't most other civs be better choices to open with progress or to pick a different founder with?
I totally get this! Like I actually got Hero Worship in my current game but because I didn't go Authority it felt a bit lacklustre and counterintuitive conquering cities without getting the culture and science from taking them. It's like you say, I didn't "lean into the kit" and it felt less fun somehow. I'll endeavour to persevere though! I'm determined to make it fun even if it isn't as fun as it should be in trying to do so :lol:
 
Wouldn't it be better if all UUs could be produced without the respective resource? After all, there are some where this is already the case. Maybe even the AI would then build its UU, which it doesn't always do at the moment.
 
Wouldn't it be better if all UUs could be produced without the respective resource? After all, there are some where this is already the case. Maybe even the AI would then build its UU, which it doesn't always do at the moment.
That is an excellent point! I wonder why there some that don't? Perhaps it would be too op to have 20 odd Samurai romping around in the medieval era? But I suppose they could be nerfed if that were the case.
 
A problem that can then arise is that you have a bunch of UU that you cannot upgrade. It may then be necessary to disband/gift them, else be stuck with progressively more out of date units. This happens already to some civs like Egypt.
I don't know how the AI deals with such a circumstance.

In any case, I personally don't think it's a good idea to blanket remove resource costs. Alternative solutions like a unique ironworks are better.
 
Played some more games as Japan. Actually found myself in a game without other highly religious civs so went for founding a religion after all and got the first religion on t91 or so, nabbing Hero Worship.

But there's another problem with Japan- getting to Samurai in a timely manner in order to capitalize on your UU power spike and take some cities can be difficult because right around that point in the game is often when you find yourself at the nadir of your tech compared to the AI. For whatever reason, early game you can reach for wonders and techs and beat the AI to them but starting late Classical I find I almost always will trail a bit, and given the timing of Japan's UU this sometimes means it's a bit tough to really take advantage of it.

Normally, you want to hit your UU early and catch your victim off guard, maybe even an era behind in military tech but with Japan it's almost always your Samurai/Bowmen/Horsemen vs your enemy's Longswordsmen/composites/Knights and soon those Longswords are Tercios. It just happens that you're often behind in tech in that era.

Japan is sorta victimized by some meta game things... hero worship being overly prized by the AI, a good UU that comes at a rough time, high dependence on unreliable iron, and authority being maybe the highest variance opening policy.
 
About opening with Authority, I think Tradition is a solid alternative, and overall more synergistic with Japan's UA. The thing to consider is that the amount of GWAM points given by the UA is based on how much they currently cost; it gives 200 if it currently costs 400 (1 great person already born through points), and only 75 if it costs 150 (none born through points). So, by going Tradition and working those cultural specialists from Ancient Era, you get more GWAM points per GG or GA born than if you open with Authority.

Just in the example given, if you open Tradition and generate one Great Artist before getting your first Great General, those 200 points from one GG are worth almost 3 GG births from opening Authority, who can only work artist specialists in Late Medieval Era and is likely to not have generated a Great Artist beforehand.

It results in a different playstyle, since Tradition is not as geared for mass conquest as Authority is. Your units aren't as strong and capable of breaking through the enemy lines, so conquest ends being much slower. Opening Tradition gears you for a cultural victory, with wars being used for fueling up great work generation, instead of the usual warmongering rewards. Founding first is much more reliable, with that free +3 faith on the second policy.

When I go Tradition with Japan, I typically aim for Ceremonial Burial (culture and faith from expending GPs) instead of Hero Worship, since Tradition + Japan's UA can fuel it very fast and explosively. Conquest is optional here, and whatever I conquer often ends as a puppet, to avoid increasing culture costs that weaken those culture procs from Tradition and Ceremonial Burial.

Authority first, and then Imperialism later on, culminating in three different starts all ending in disaster, always falling way behind in tech and not being able to make any impact with an army, even with god of war, zealotry, hero worship and warrior monk picked as beliefs as well as wonders that should bolster things like terracotta etc. So this latest game I've tried a different tact; going Progress to get expansion up and running early and then Artistry to bolster great works and by god it's miles better!
I think Authority is currently underpowered, due to offering too little Science. This tree seems to consistently reach Medieval about 15 to 25 turns later than Tradition and Progress, which is a bad timing for the usual military spike that a human player can use to catch up with the AI, doubly so for Japan. If you don't snowball with Authority early you tend to fall behind, and you often need some early advantage (like an ancient UU) to get that snowball.

I've seen a few proposals over the last year that seem to want to drastically alter the kit, many of them fun alterations, especially the unique forge by @Legen, but I'm thinking now that might be going too far? Would love to hear peoples thoughts on this!
I think those proposals ended being too hasty, with not much time to think through the implications and what people actually wanted to see changed. The Torii proposals were under tuned to the point of being worse than just creating a regular great work, many people didn't want the Samurai to go away, and the voting scores show that people didn't want changes to the Dojo. People were also unenthusiastic about the Kabuki (at least those who voiced their opinions), and there was practically no discussion on the idea of Great Engineers proccing GWAM. We were trying to fix multiple things at once, and none of the proposals did so (if they even properly fixed) without trampling on things people wanted to preserve in Japan's kit.

In hindsight, I could have proposed the Tatara as a Kabuki replacement, simplified it, and left the Dojo and UA largely untouched (the common factor among the two most voted proposals). If it were now, I'd have done the Tatara proposal along these lines:

  • UA: Yields on Defense buildings removed.
  • Kabuki replaced by Tatara, an Unique Forge with the following design:
UB - Tatara (replaces Forge):
Unlocked at Bronze Working
Cost: 90 :c5production: (from 110 :c5production:)
Maintenance: -1 :c5gold:
Iron: +1
+2 :c5culture: Culture and +2 :c5science: Science
(from +1 :c5science: Science)
Enables the construction of Yorishiro: Sword, Yorishiro: Jewel and Yorishiro: Mirror.
<< maybe insert additional effect >>


Sword
1 of 3 Mutually Exclusive Unique Japanese Buildings.
Cost: 20 :c5production:

Allow :c5food: Food and :c5production: Production Internal Trade Routes to be sent from this city.
3 Writing slots (+15 theming bonus, +10 :c5production: Production if themed, requires 3 Japanese works, any era).
TR to or from this City generate 50 :c5production: Production to the origin City when completed (same as Kabuki).

Jewel
1 of 3 Mutually Exclusive Unique Japanese Buildings.
Cost: 20 :c5production:

Allow :c5food: Food and :c5production: Production Internal Trade Routes to be sent from this city.
3 Art/Artifact slots (+15 theming bonus, +10 :c5culture: Culture if themed, requires 3 Japanese works, any era).
TR to or from this City generate 50 :c5culture: Culture to the origin City when completed.

Mirror
1 of 3 Mutually Exclusive Unique Japanese Buildings.
Cost: 20 :c5production:

Allow :c5food: Food and :c5production: Production Internal Trade Routes to be sent from this city.
3 Music slots (+25 theming bonus, +20 :c5science: Science if themed, requires 3 Japanese works, any era).
TR to or from this City generate 50 :c5science: Science to the origin City when completed.


Basically, still a stronger Forge that gives +1 Iron, and with a twist on the Kabuki's internal trade route proc, which adds variety and new considerations to the early game. Also, strong theming bonuses akin to world wonders, and for all three GW types; this solves the issue of not having great work slots for early UA procs and gives this UB a clear synergy with the UA. There is room for an extra effect from removing the yields on Defense buildings from the UA; maybe something like each yorishiro giving a +1 :c5faith: Faith and +1 of its respective yield (e.g. +1 :c5production: Production for Sword) to great works in the city. I wouldn't try adding the Engineer idea back now, given how little attention it got during that session, nor the Kabuki's GWAM birth procs, with how little enthusiasm it received. Maybe people's opinions have changed by now, though.

I could also think of a better Torii, but this one is more complicated. The scaling is very different, since you need to account for both great work and improvement scaling, as well as decide whether the Torii is supposed to scale in relation to the theming bonus of regular cultural buildings (e.g. Museum) or to World Wonders (otherwise, it's better to create regular GWs if you built, say, the Great Library or the Notre Dame). I had some ideas, but I'm not enthusiastic of how high the yields can be (over 60 in the late game) just to be on par with a GW + improvement. It also requires new DLL code (if just for the GWAM bulb scaling), which I don't want to propose after all this time the 4UC integration has gone through.

In terms of possible changes, I wonder if a source of iron attached to walls could be reasonable/feasible? +1 iron from walls would make Samurai very consistent, no idea if there is any historical justification for it though.
Nice idea although this is where I think the Iron would be more accurately applied to a forge since historically it was their Samurai swords which were so expertly wrought.
The Tatara's idea was based on Japan having documented technology to extract iron (and eventually steel) from ironsand, and doing it in a scale that is economically significant, since the 6th century. By contrast, the West first invented a way to do it in the 18th century and stated to be the first time it was ever done, unaware that Japanese smiths have been doing that for more than a millennium. This timeline gives a sound reasoning for an early unique building that gives extra Iron. And thinking now, given that it had important economic, cultural and religious implications within Japan, it makes sense for the Tatara to also have bonuses to internal trade routes.
 
It also requires new DLL code (if just for the GWAM bulb scaling)
This code is very welcomed. The table accepts any unit but only works for 3 missions. That should be extended.
The Tatara's idea was based on Japan having documented technology to extract iron (and eventually steel) from ironsand, and doing it in a scale that is economically significant, since the 6th century.
They only did because they lack other sources of iron. The tatara should at least be an Ironworks because of its timing. No way it's an ancient building.
 
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