JB1 - Generic Random Deity

[T_McC]

JB1

1500BC (0)
Swap Beijing to warrior. This will yield us 3 or 4 more proto-swords before we have iron. After we have iron, then we'll build spears. (I'm assuming we're not going to be pillaging our own resources.) Leave Shanghai on archer.

Also note Roman worker in stack clearing jungle. Being layered with 4 of our workers, he's not doing any good. (24 base turns for jungle clearing, 4 industrious workers will finish in 3 turns (24/(4*2)). Adding 1 non-industrious worker still finishes in 3 turns (24/(4*2 + 1)). Will split stack after this tile is cleared. Only the Great Library is under construction, but not by Persia.

1475 (1)
Beijing warrior --> warrior. Send Vet Spear from Beijing to Shanghai. Move attack stack (2 spear, 8 archer out of Shanghai). Korea moves spear-warrior pair next to Canton. I'll let it slide.

1450 (2)
Beijing warrior --> warrior. Attack stack moves to neutral mountain NE of iron. Score 6 gold + Iro TM for our WM. X-man looks PO'd, like he knows what's coming.

1425 (3)
Double extortion, Liz gets 24 gold, the Hammer gets 22. The iron-less Babylonians will get theirs after we finish the first Persian war. Beijing warrior --> worker. Dial up X-man, tell him to kiss my big, hairy, white ..errr... declare WAR!

Capture Persian worker on mountain, move rest of stack so as not to be attacking Susa from across the river. Persians begin Great Library in Perseopolis.

1400 (4)
Lose 2 archers, promote 1, capture Susa with 3 workers. The whole attack gang piles in to suppress resistance. Susa starts walls. Beijing worker --> warrior, Swap Shanghai from archer to spear, upgrade 1 warrior to sword.

1375 (5)
Two Immortals (1 vet, 1 reg) arrive across the river (in a forest) from Susa, I'm not attacking with archers. Susa has 4 spears, 1 sword, 6 archers defending it. Beijing warrior --> sword (as we're not exactly flush with cash). Shanghai spear --> spear.

1350 (6)
Win 1, lose 1 against Immortals. Iron-less GA for Persia. Additional Immortal arrives in forest, so one healthy Immortal will attack next turn. Get 6 gold for WM.

1325 (7)
Lose another spear to an Immortal. One Immortal remains across river, rest of the stack is spears and warriors. Mathematics discovered. Research turned off, to gain an additional 2 gpt. Now at 39 gold, making 7 per turn. We will get technology for peace from Persia, no sense pouring money down the research hole.

1300 (8)
Lose another spear in Susa, kill 2 spears and 1 warrior. Two Immortals can attack next turn. Beijing sword --> worker. Upgrade another warrior to sword.

1275 (9)
Lose spear, archer at Susa. Walls finally built. Susa walls --> catapult. Canton barracks --> Spear. The Persians will talk to us, but won't give any technology or even their WM for peace.

1250 (10)
Sword successfully defends against Immortal at Susa. Persia will now give us Philosophy or Literature for peace. Our WM nets 5 gold.



JB in 1250 BC

 

[T_McC]

Notes for next leader:

There are 3 swords (1 elite), and 5 archers (1 elite) defending Susa. Unfortunately, the terrain around Susa basically precludes defense-by-offense, so we're taking some defensive casualties. That will slow with the walls in place, as I believe a vet spear/sword behind walls across a river has a better than 50/50 of defending against a vet Immortal. Persia has no native iron (Babylon poached their other local source), and I believe they have at most 3 Immortals.

So far in this war, we have traded 3 archers and 4 spears for iron, a luxury, a city, and 4 workers. We can stop now and get a technology also. If I were to continue playing, I would want the war to last 6-7 more turns, as Gordium is still a wide-open target. In about 5 turns, we can have 3 vet spears in Susa, freeing up an attack force of at least 3 swords and 3 archers to go after Gordium. After capturing Gordium, we could immediately make peace and probably score two technologies out of the treaty. The validity of this plan is highly dependent on the outcome of the Immortal attack on the next interturn. Up to Darkness.

If/when we do capture Gordium, I stand by my earlier opinion it should be moved two tiles SE, to better fit into our first ring.

Darkness should also review the worker stacks, as chances are they aren't optimal. The worker W of Beijing is roading the forest. I think when that finishes Darkness will be able to time the chop to complete a unit. If I had started the chop on my turn, I think we would have had a 20-shield worker.

 

[T_McC]

 

[JustBen]

Originally posted by T_McC
If I were to continue playing, I would want the war to last 6-7 more turns, as Gordium is still a wide-open target. ... After capturing Gordium, we could immediately make peace and probably score two technologies out of the treaty. ...

If/when we do capture Gordium, I stand by my earlier opinion it should be moved two tiles SE, to better fit into our first ring.[/B]

I'm inclined to agree wholeheartedly with our triumphant general's analysis of the situation. It'd seem a shame to get Swords and not be able to push beyond our Archer assault. Moreover that Gordium is in a really obnoxious location, and I'd like to see us in a better position to seize those Dyes.

Roster:
JustBen
Darkness (up next)
Kuningas (on deck)
Greebley
T_McC

 

[Darkness]

got it! Will play tonight and post tomorrow....

 

[Greebley]

Looks like the war is going well. I agree that Gordium would be a good target before peace. A third luxury would really help us. If we capture Gordium instead of razing it, I wonder if it would be good to keep the city until we place our new one(s). I would hate to have that area poached by some random civ.

The city you suggest is a better spot, but Gordium is better placed for anti-poaching. With only 1 citizen it is unlikely to flip. Once we have our cities in that area, we just abandon it (or better; worker it to non-existance).

 

[T_McC]

I think we have three options with regard to Gordium: (1) Let it grow to size 3, whip out the settler and move to the tile NE of the gold hill, re-found. The city will technically be Persian, but I wouldn't worry about a flip. (2) Found a city ourselves on that tile, and disband Gordium with workers. (3) Found a city ourselves on that tile, disband Gordium with a settler, and found a new city somewhere else. (3) probably makes the most sense, although I don't know where the settler would then go. (Might go into ex-Babylon!)

One thing to note from the screen shot: The blue guys NE of Susa are a Korean settler pair. They were wandering around my whole turn. If we were to raze Gordium on our attack, they'd poach the silks. So if we go with (1), they have to be accounted for, or else they will found someplace awkward and stupid to screw us up.

After Gordium and peace with the Persians, I believe we will be preparing for a war with Babylon to claim horses. We will probably need to build a settler or two for that war, as we may want to raze the culturally-rich Babylonian cities. (Neither Persian target had any culture, and were closer to our capital than theirs) Doing (3), and moving Gordium into our south 1st ring seems the most efficient way to proceed. Up to Darkness and/or Kuningas.

Oh, two more things: The Iroquois are the laggards in technology, so we may want to check with them before we make peace with Persia. Maybe we can get something that's not @last for peace, and trade for more. If Persia is sitting on a pile of GA cash, that might be better than tech, as we still have a handful of swords to upgrade. We could then use Babylon for tech.

I'm sure Darkness' best judgement on peace will be correct.

 

[Darkness]

OK, I'm very sorry but RL prevented me from going to my computer last night, so I'll have to play it tonight, if that's OK with you guys? Sorry about this.

BTW, I read all the posts and will try not to disappoint you...

 

[T_McC]

BTW, I read all the posts and will try not to disappoint you...

I'm sure you'll do fine. Besides, the joy of playing succession games is that if you lose, you can blame everybody else.

Gordium is currently size 2. If/when we move an attack stack next to it (no two-move units, we have to spend a turn next to it), the city will very likely whip either an archer or spear, dropping to size 1 and auto-razing on capture. I think we need to have a settler ready to found a new city within 1 turn of the attack. Building the settler out of Beijing after the spear finishes, and using cash to upgrade a vet warrior in Shanghai will still allow us to have three 2-defense units in Susa while freeing up 3 swords for the attack on Gordium.

 

[Darkness]

Sorry people, I wasn't able to capture/replace Gordium.
Here's what happened in my ten turns:.

IT: Immortal attacks and kills a veteran swordsman. He has only 1 hp left. And then he gets promoted too… Rome completes the Great Library.

1225 BC (1): Bejing builds settler and starts swordsman. Our only elite swordsman attacks the 2/5 Immortal near Susa. And kills him. And gives us a GL!!!!!! I decide to save him (maybe get the Hanging Gardens or an early MA wonder) ‘cause we only have one other elite (no immeidate other GL chances), so I don’t see any immediate reason for an army.

IT: Persian forces approach Canton.

1200 BC (2): Shanghai builds spearman and starts spearman veteran swordsman gets promoted to elite. We move a pair of warriors and a spearman towards Canton as support against the Persian assault.

IT: Our veteran warrior defends Canton successfully.

1175 BC (3): We kill another immortal.

IT: Persia attacks us with a warrior, an archer and an Immortal. We lose some hp, but we kill all three without the loss of units.

1150 BC (4): Bejing builds swordsman and starts another.

IT: 2 Persian horsies approach Susa

1125 BC (5): Nothing…

IT: One of the horsies dies…

1100 BC (6): We start our march on Gordium with 4 swordsman and 2 archers. We also kill the second Persian archer.

IT: Canton is attacked again and we lose a spearman. The Persians definitely have another source of iron, because a stack of 6 immortals just approached Susa.

1075 BC (7): Bejing builds swordsman, Shanghai builds spearman. Both cities start building swordsman. Another vet swordsman gets promoted. We get construction (the only tech with trading value) and 88 gold for peace from Persia. The Iroquois get construction and 19 gold for Map making and Code of laws. We trade construction to America for Literature and 7 gold.

1050 BC (8): Troop movement to start positioning for a war against Babylon…

1025 BC (9): Bejing builds swordsman and begins another. Canton builds spearman and starts another…

1000 BC (10): Troop positioning finished for our assault on Babylon.

For the next player:
- I decided to save the GL, but if you want to go with a (soon obsolete) swordsman army, that’s your call. I would prefer to save the leader for the Gardens or an early MA wonder.
- MM is adjusted so that Bejing completes another swordsman next turn, after that you need to rearrange it to be able to turn the sliders back to 8.0.2. (it’s now 7.0.3.)

The save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/JB01-1000_BC.zip

 

[Kuningas]

Originally posted by Darkness

For the next player:
- I decided to save the GL, but if you want to go with a (soon obsolete) swordsman army, that’s your call. I would prefer to save the leader for the Gardens or an early MA wonder.

Got it. I may save the GL. FP in center of Persian territory would be nice.

I'll post tomorrow.

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by Darkness
Sorry people, I wasn't able to capture/replace Gordium.

Good job Darkness!

We'll get it next time, when we have Riders and Immortals are just cheap MDI. You got four techs and a Great Leader! The only bad luck is we missed out on the Great Library. (By one turn! )

As regards the leader, it sounds like the Great Wall is available, but I doubt we want it as it would trigger our GA. An FP sounds good to me (can you even build an army with less than 5 cities?). Hanging Gardens is also good.

When it comes time to place the FP we may want to consider that it's likely we will leader-jump our palace out of Beijing later in the game. (This would make Susa a viable location)

@Kuningas - Even with all the talk on this board (mostly by me ), don't feel pressured to attack Babylon right away. We'll start the war when we can win it.

 

[Greebley]

I don't think we want an army. There are some good wonders coming up. I wonder if it is worth holding the leader for Sun Tzu's? Hanging garden would be worthwhile too as we are going to have few towns and so probably want big towns.

I am not suprised Gordium was beyond us. Persia was one of the biggest fish in the sea. With immortals, he is nasty.

Getting the iron and lux and leader was a decent haul I think.

 

[T_McC]

Looked at the save, and have a few thoughts. We have two nice stacks to attack Babylon early. Ur is across a river and on a hill, so we'll need to be careful how we approach it. Secondly, Babylon does has Iron, so don't be suprised to see swords. Also means striking before they get Feudalism is prudent.

If we do strike early, we have a lot of exposed workers on the Babylon border. When they finish their tasks may dictate when we can attack. Also gives us time to build up even greater forces (or settlers to raze/replace).

Finally. @JustBen: Are we playing on a standard map or a small map? It seems that every civ is accounted for, and nobody really has any land. May just be the effect of 80% water. England is playing an OCC!

 

[JustBen]

Yes, we're on a standard map (can you even have that many civs on a small map?).

It's been a long time since I've had the Hanging Gardens; that would be neat. And as sweet as Sun Tzu's would be, as a Militaristic civ, it's worth half as many shields to us. Forbidden Palaces, on the other hand, are awesome. I haven't looked at the save yet, but if we have a good place for the FP, we should probably rush it as soon as we can build it.

Take your time on Babylon. I want to take over more Babylonian land, not sooner Babylonian land. Without Iron, they're not getting any stronger any time soon.

[Edit:] Go ahead and pretend like I'm literate and didn't make the comment about Babylonian Iron reserves. This seems to strengthen the argument for careful preparation, though. We can still do plenty of research via peace negotiations with Hammurabi.

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by JustBen
Yes, we're on a standard map (can you even have that many civs on a small map?).

You could, but you'd have to have used the editor and created a custom scenario. This must be what 80% water looks like (don't think I've ever chosen that in any solo games). It's actually good for us, as this will make the tech pace slower.

 

[Kuningas]

0 - 1000BC
Babylons: WM and 5 gold for TM.
Sold WM to everybody for 1 gold (+6gold).

1 - 975BC
Beijing: Sword -> Sword

war declared to Babylons. I don't want them to cultural dominate us.
Sword stacks move next to Ur and Ellipi.

2 - 950BC
Shanghai Sword -> Sword

Ellipi:
Lost: sword vs 3/3 spear
win: sword (hp 3/4) vs 3/3 spear
Lost: sword vs 2/3 spear
win: sword (hp 5/5) vs 2/4 spear
win: sword (hp 3/5) vs 3/3 sword
Ellipi and 2 workers captured
Ellipi -> Library

3 - 925BC
win: Babylon 3/3 sword vs sword (hp 3/5)
Susa Catapult -> spear

Ur:
Lost: archer vs 3/3 spear
Win: sword (hp 1/4) vs 3/3 spear
Lost: sword vs 2/3 spear
win: sword (hp 3/5) vs 3/4 spear
Ur captured
Ur -> Library
Incense and horses connected

Shanghai switch to Horseman
Beijing switch to Horseman

Win: sword (hp 1/5) vs 3/3 bowman
Win: archer (hp 5/5) vs 3/3 warrior


4 - 900BC
Win: 3/3 Bowman vs archer (hp 1/5)
Persians completed The Great Wall.

Beijing horseman -> settler

Win: sword (hp 4/4) vs 3/3 warrior

5 - 875BC
win: Sword (hp 4/5) vs 3/3 bowman

6 - 850BC
Canton spear -> Horseman

withdraw: Horseman (1/4) vs 3/3 bowman
win: sword (hp 4/4) vs 3/3 bowman
win: sword (hp 3/5) vs 3/3 warrior

7 - 825BC
Shanghai Horseman ->horseman

Nineveh:
Win: sword (hp 1/5) vs 3/3 spear
Lost: archer vs 3/3 spear
Win: sword (hp 1/5) vs 3/3 spear
Lost: archer vs 3/3 sword
Lost: archer vs 3/3 sword
No more units to attack Nineveh this turn.

Win: sword (hp 3/4) vs 2/3 spear

Trades:
Koreans: WM, 12gpt and 51 gold for Currency
English: WM, 2gpt, Currency and 26 gold for Polytheism and Philosophy
Babylons: Peace treaty for Monotheism, 5gpt and 15 gold
Persians: Monotheism, WM, 1gpt and 17 gold for Monarchy
Americans: Monotheism for WM, 2gpt, 30 gold
Iroquois: Monotheism for furs, WM and 55 gold

For 154 gold 5 techs. We are only two techs behind rivals (Engineering and the Republic)
Research set to Thelogy

Switched Beijing to Marketplace
GL rushed Hanging Gardens in Shanghai

Revolution

8 - 800BC
Shanghai HG -> Horseman

9 - 775BC
nothing

10 - 750BC
Monarchy formed
Fast revolution 3 turns ^_^

I rushed HG. IIRC FP needs 8 cities and sword army wasn't a good choice.

For next player should build some culture and a lot of horsemans.
Mayby starting a prebuild for the Leonardo's workshop?

EDIT:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/JB01-750BC.SAV

 

[JustBen]

If you would, Kuningas, please post the save in a .zip file. Corruption, etc.

Two questions to Kunie about our situation:

1. Is a 40-turn run on Theology really worth our time? Right now we're doing it with a Scientist in Beijing that could be put to work on a hillside to cut our time to the Marketplace by a turn; our Hanging Gardens allows us to keep luxuries at 0% even with this move.

2. Why haven't Ur and Ellipi been starved to 1 each? In Ur, I count 5 foods, 0 garrison units, and 3 Babylonians. Babylonians.

Greebley may want to consider measures to pare down the size of our newly annexed land; Worker/Settler production may be appropriate at this point, since we've got a fair bit of food in both cities' boxes already.

Now's a good time to start cranking out Horsemen. It would be really cool if we could snag Leo's at this point for just that reason, but I'm not going to hold my breath. We need cash which means Marketplaces; it's also hard to judge which path the AIs will be taking along the tech tree. Sometimes they beeline for guns, but sometimes they just want to take care of Democracy before bridge building.

Republic would be nice, but I guess there's no pressing hurry now that we're clear of the Despotism penalty. But money is good. Especially when you want to be able to upgrade your Horsemen into Riders so you can sweep the filthy, heathen Persians into the sea once and for all!

Roster:
JustBen
Darkness
Kuningas
Greebley (up next)
T_McC (on deck)

 

[Kuningas]

Originally posted by JustBen
If you would, Kuningas, please post the save in a .zip file. Corruption, etc.

Two questions to Kunie about our situation:

1. Is a 40-turn run on Theology really worth our time? Right now we're doing it with a Scientist in Beijing that could be put to work on a hillside to cut our time to the Marketplace by a turn; our Hanging Gardens allows us to keep luxuries at 0% even with this move.

2. Why haven't Ur and Ellipi been starved to 1 each? In Ur, I count 5 foods, 0 garrison units, and 3 Babylonians. Babylonians.

Ok. I make .zip file next time.

1. I was thinking that Theology could have some trading value. We can't research faster even feudalism is 31 turns at 100%.

2. They were Babylonians I believed the resistance was over forgot to check.

 

[JustBen]

Oh, getting Theology for free is certainly cool, and we definitely don't want to be researching ourselves at this point. The question is if it's worth even the 3 spt + 1 fpt + 1 gpt to gamble that we won't buy/extort the technology outright over the course of the next 40 turns. I guarantee we won't be selling it to anyone 40 turns from now.

I'm not claiming this is necessarily a bad move, mind you. We may be running down the lower tech path ourselves, towards the Workshop, so grabbing Theology for 120 shields and 40 gold might be worthwhile. I suppose I should've directed that question more to the group than to you specifically.

I stand by the criticism of the conquered cities, though. The resistance is indeed over, but with 3 foreign nationals and no garrison units whatsoever, they're still significant flip risks. I haven't checked our relative culture, but it's Babylon we're talking about -- that only makes it worse.

Did I compliment you for slinging us out of Despotism and into the Middle Ages? I think I forgot the positive half of my comments in that last message. Right on ; definitely good news. I think the Hanging Gardens was a good choice, too. By the time they go obsolete we should have a really solid grip on the game, assuming we haven't locked it up entirely by then.