JFD's The Empire of Japan (Meiji) for Vox Populi (v 3)

HungryForFood · Dec 13, 2018

JFD's Civilizations - Japan (Meiji) for Vox Populi
Does not need the original mod
(steam workshop)
(link to original mod)

Click on the overview button on the top left for information.

Spoiler UA details :

Spoiler Zaibatsu details :

Spoiler Mikasa details :

Spoiler More UC details :

Spoiler Mod compatibility details :

Spoiler Credits :

HungryForFood · Dec 13, 2018

About 5 months ago, I talked about wanting to make a VP compatible Meiji Japan. Well, I went on hiatus a bit because I got employed, but I am hoping to get back into VP modding.

Since I have less free time than before, I think its better to post my ideas first, so I don't have to go through many release iterations like Prussia or Tojo. See Civ 5 Customisation wiki for reference.

Roughly going through my priorities of VP civ compatibility design:

Fun and interesting enough to make people want to play it on occasion over the 40+ other VP civs.
Feels balanced / fair when playing as or against the civ.
Practicality of teaching the AI how to use it.
Follows the original creator's themes / ideas.
Ease of coding.

Keep in mind I know how to edit the DLL using C++, and I'm intending to implement all features via the DLL.

Without further ado...

Japan (Meiji)

UA: Imperial Reverence (the name JFD used) / Meiji Restoration (a bit too obvious maybe)

+20% Culture, Production and Science during Golden Ages. This is the core of the UA from JFD's design. As it is simple, thematic, but powerful, we shall not change it too much. However, the yield amount, type, and details (eg city level or player level) should be adjusted as required.

Outside of the core, I'm less certain what to go with. I have several ideas though, so maybe pick 1-2 out of the below.

+1 Culture and Faith from Military Buildings. This follows the idea from the alternate leaders mod proposal of having a similar UA part for alt leaders, and what's more, the VP Tojo also follows this theme. What yields and which buildings to buff can be changed as required.
+X Golden Age Points per Technology behind the leader, +Y per Policy behind the leader. Only counts leader you have met. This UA part, together with the GA bonuses, references the fact that Meiji led Japan from a feudal backwater to a modern industrialised nation.
Cities with a Great General garrisoned produce military units +X% faster. +5 XP per owned Great General. This UA part basically adapts JFD's Daimyo bonuses into the UA. I'm not sure how thematic it is though.
Gain Golden Age Points when you construct military units. This adapts the JFD's Mikasa bonuses. Not sure how interesting this one is, and Meiji really shouldn't be pushed too much towards warmongering.

UB: Dojo (same as Japan)

The Dojo is a very solid UB, and it feels fitting for many different eras of Japan, from the feudal era all the way to WWII. Perhaps we can use it again.

The only idea other than the Dojo which I could think of is to use the fact that Meiji established state Shinto, but how can we make a Shrine/Temple UB yet not tilt the civ into being religious? Ideas are welcome.

UU: Mikasa (replaces Cruiser)

Not clear exactly what features this unit should have, so here are a few ideas. Pick as many or a few as you want:

Golden Age Points (or other yields) when constructed.
Golden Age Points (or other yields) when destroying enemy units.
Combat Bonus against naval units.
Combat Bonus in friendly territory.
Maybe we can toss in an interesting unique promotion of some sort...

The main point of this unit should be to reference the cultural and political impact of Japan winning the Russo-Japanese War.

- or -

UU: Daimyo (replaces Great General)

To be honest, I don't feel it fits too well with Meiji, as the only part which is thematic to me is that it references abolishing the Han system.

Personally I prefer it when UUs line up with the leader in terms of era / relevance, so this unit might work better as a UU for a feudal Japan leader.

We can make this work though, if the Mikasa is not appealing enough.

And that's all for now. Hopefully I can get some discussion going here.

JFD · Jan 5, 2019

Meiji's Japan is intended to emulate the climax of Meiji's reforms - doing away with the old feudal system and ushering in a modern, centralized state (and in a way a Golden Age with it). I like to design such that the player is playing out a particular narrative even if sometimes this transcends the leader in particular, and in this case, its building up an excessive and ultimately useless amount of Great Generals/Daimyo, before expending them for a Golden Age once their pre-modern and anachronistic purpose of feudal warmongering has been fulfilled. If you don't want to keep that general direction intact and would rather uniques that matched the specific leader, I'd say go with the Goshinpei - Meiji's imperial Guard of sorts - instead.

HungryForFood · Jan 6, 2019

Yea I got your intention with your Daimyo, just couldn't shake the oddness that is Meiji benefiting from having Daimyos around, while Nobunaga for example doesn't.

One of my ideas to incorporate your idea of the player emulating Meiji's reform was to add 'Can expend Great Generals for Golden Age Points after the Industrial Era' into the UA, replacing the building bonuses.

PS: If you check the stuff I've done, you can find the new database tables I added to be used with CPDLL. I think they might be useful for you too. For Meiji, I've already completed Trait_GoldenAgeYieldModifiers (pending pull request).

pineappledan · Jan 6, 2019

It would be a shame if you just doubled up on the same things that Nobunaga has. Here are some alternative ideas instead of the Dojo:

Zaibatsu - Family controlled vertical monopolies which formed the heart of economic power in 19th century Japan. Maybe you could make a unique corporation, or a unique coal plant? The 4 largest were:

Mitsubishi - Initially a zaibatsu founded within 2 years of the Meiji restoration. Specialized in shipping, but expanded into coal mining, energy, automobiles and military contracts. Most famous for the airplanes they built for the Japanese Military in WWII
Sumitomo - Initially a copper smelting business in the 1600s. Formed into a mining, smelting, instrumentation and machinery conglomerate in the Meiji
Yasuda - Initially formed as a tax-collection agency, the Yasuda group quickly expanded through currency speculation into the largest bank and financial group in Japan, then expanded into insurance and private investment
Mitsui - Started as a miso shop in Edo in the 1600s. Was able to form a Zaibatsu in the Meiji era, specializing in financial instruments, drapery and trade goods, but expanded into mining and industrial chemicals to support its main industries

Kosho - Imperial arsenals that made guns for the new Imperial army of Japan. This was necessary because foreign procurements of weapons and artillery were often of different calibres, creating ammunition supply issues.

Unique improvement: Kofun - Imperial gravesites from the 3rd to 7th centuries throughout Japan. There are >100 000 of these mausoleums throughout Japan, and they are under the direct control of the Imperial family. It's a Major left-field option, but it would spread Meiji out into the Classical era, as a piece of archeological history which the newly resurgent emperor had direct control over, just as western archaeology would have been coming to Japan. This would require someone with knowledge on how to make UIs unfortunately, but maybe with JFD coming back into civ5, he might be able to leverage some of his contacts to design a Kofun UI? It would be perfect for a Yamatai civ led by Queen Himiko, if someone were to make that. I know people are always trying to get more ladies into Civ.

I'll also say that I wish people would stay away from the GGenerals triggering golden ages mechanic. It's been done. Over and Over. With Macedon in the Greek Split, With Prussia, and now here.

I like the idea of GAPs for techs that you haven't found, but I don't think tying it only to the tech leader is the best approach. Would it not be easier if it was GAPs for every tech discovered by any other player, but not by Japan? This might end up just being the tech leader, but it's more powerful, and makes more sense with Meiji, since Japan sort of "shopped around", copying the Prusso-German constitution, mostly relying on French miltitary advisers, purchasing arms from the US and France, etc.

pineappledan · Jan 6, 2019

Re: the unique unit, it will be great to have a unique cruiser replacement, a VP first.

With regards to a Special promotion for the Mikasa. It was involved in two major victories against Russian ships:

In one engagement, the Japanese fleet baited the Russian flagship (with Vice-Admiral Makrarov aboard) out. On seeing the 5 battleships arrayed against him, Makarov made to flee, struck a mine, and sank with all hands.
In the other, Admiral Togo managed to disable the steering on another flagship, crossed the T, and bombarded the disabled ship until its internal magazine exploded. The Mikasa was struck 40 times during that engagement, but didn't incur any serious damage.

Aside from these two fights, the Mikasa is most notable for exploding and sinking while moored on a dockside 6 days after the war ended :lol:

. The ship was then raised, hung around as a coast guard vessel, and was decommissioned in 1923 as a memorial ship.

So, two of my own ideas:

"Crossing the T" promotion: +15% RCS vs naval units, and 20% bonus to units below 50 HP. Basically, the Mikasa gets a 4th tier Targeting promotion, supercharging the base promotion line (total of 40% vs naval and 50% vs wounded, with Targeting III)
"Memorial Ship" promotion: On Declaration of Peace, all Mikasa are liquidated for an instant Culture boost. (750 for every Mikasa if you conclude a peace deal. 0.83 per 1 production conversion)

Per JFD's recommendation of the Goshinpei, if you wanted to generalize it a bit more you could make a Great War Infantry replacement: Arisaka Rifleman. The Arisaka was Japan's second attempt at a standardized infantry rifle that went into service in 1897, replacing the Murata rifle. The Murata was an unreliable, crappy rifle, but the Arisaka was well-regarded, despite some concerns with safety. The Arisaka saw wide use even in European and Russian armies. The British bought Arisaka rifles during WWI, and outfitted the Arab revolt against the Ottomans (Lawrence of Arabia, etc.) with these guns, and they saw wide use in Imperial Russia while they tried (unsuccessfully) to quell the Communist uprising.

HungryForFood · Jan 7, 2019

Just a quick note, I've scrapped the yield per tech thing, and changed it to '-20% unit production costs during golden ages'. This references Meiji's military modernisation, and I feel that this is similar to what JFD was going for with the 15 XP.

This indirectly decreases gold purchase costs and upgrade costs, as those depend on the production cost.

I'll review the rest of your post when I'm home.

pineappledan · Jan 7, 2019

Oh. Why not keep the 15XP? With an additional 20% towards military, that's 60% production towards, that's a lot of stacking.

You could do something with my suggested Zaibatsu that gives % military unit production based on total science from TRs. So the more behind you are in tech, the bigger bonus you get. I dunno, that would preserve both of your ideas without making the UA quite so overstacked though.

HungryForFood · Jan 7, 2019

Reduced cost, not more production modifier, not the same thing.

No XP because Meiji is about modernising the military, but not to be better than the other great powers at the time.

pineappledan · Jan 7, 2019

HungryForFood said:
Reduced cost, not more production modifier, not the same thing.

Technically true, because a +20% unit production modifier is only 96% as powerful as a 20% reduction in cost. They don't really function any differently if it still requires that you build the unit though.

If you want to stress the modernizing of the military then why not have -25% :c5gold:

Gold cost for unit upgrade during Golden Ages?

Jarula · Jan 9, 2019

Honestly should keep dojo for 4 uu

Something to kind of hold onto the "character of old Japan

And the ga points c points oin tech behind leader is fair

cammcken · Jan 13, 2019

If this is truly meant to fit with VP, then all UUs besides ridiculously overpowered ones should come with a free, non-unique, keep-on-upgrade promotion.

Legen · Jan 15, 2019

My suggestion for the uniques is to reference the Sekimon-shingaku movement, founded by Ishida Baigan. His movement is speculated to be a cultural foundation for Japan's successful modernization, comparable to the Protestant ethic that Max Weber believes to be a foundation of capitalism in the West.

Because it's a movement, I think it could replace a national wonder (e.g. Great temple or East India Company) or the Great Merchant, if not both. His movement preached about the way of the merchant; any combination of benefits that boosts merchants synergistically with Meiji's Golden Age focus should make it a proper foundation for the UA's effectiveness. This also opens Meiji as a possible economic alternative for Japan.

As an example:

For a national wonder replacement:
- Merchants in the empire produce an additional +2 , +2 , +2 and +2 .
- Gain additional Culture and Science from international trade routes.
- Starts a Golden Age.

For a Great Merchant replacement:
- Expending this unit generates a large sum of GAP and creates 2 free military units in your Capital. These units start with an extra +15 xp.

pineappledan · Jan 26, 2019

Per the corporation overhaul, I'm really liking the idea of a unique corporation. Here's my idea:

Japan (Meiji)

UA: Imperial Reverence

+20% Culture, Production and Science during Golden Ages. -25% Unit Upgrade Cost during Golden Ages.

This can easilly be done by adding/subtracting a unit upgrade cost reduction policy on golden ages, if you didn't want to go full SQL route.
I know you already did it, but using the Policy_FreeBuilding sql to give every city in the empire a dummy with Building_GAYieldModifier, that gives +20% :c5production:

/

/

in all cities during a :c5goldenage:

GA accomplishes the same thing you wanted without requiring any new code.

UU: Mikasa (replaces Cruiser)
4 Moves
2 Range
34 CS, 47RCS (up from 30/45)
"Crossing the T" promotion: +15% :c5rangedstrength:

RCS vs naval units, and 20% bonus to units below 50 HP
"Kantai Kessen" promotion: 200% :c5strength:

CS as

GAPs from Killed Units

UNW: Zaibatsu (Unique Corporation)
Unlocked at Industrialization (1 tech sooner)
Does not require a Monopoly Resource
+2 :trade:

Trade routes
+1 :c5production:

to all Specialists on Empire
+2 :c5culture:

and +2

to Factories, Forges, and Workshops on Empire
Office Benefits:
+2 :c5production:

, +1

and +1

per Franchise
+10% :c5production:

Production in City
+10% :c5culture:

and +10%

in City for :trade:

TRs targeting a city with a Franchise
Franchise Benefits:
+1 :c5gold:

+1

to Bonus resources near City
Corporation Franchises spread at 10% probability (up from base 5%)

Enginseer · Jan 26, 2019

I believe just allowing it to even have a corporation(add +1 more) like Byzantium is a great unique ability already.

pineappledan · Jan 27, 2019

@HungryForFood, if I made a Kofun UI, would you add it to this civ?

pineappledan · Apr 16, 2019

Zaibatsu - Family controlled vertical monopolies which formed the heart of economic power in 19th century Japan. Unique Foreign Bureau Replacement
Unlocked at Industrialization (1 tech sooner)
Does not Require a Wire Service
+1 All yields ( :c5food:

)
+1 Great Diplomat Points
+2 Paper
1 Civil Servant Specialist Slot
+20% :c5production:

Towards Diplomatic Units
All Diplomatic units receive the Diplomatic Immunity promotion
Unlocks 4 Zaibatsu Corporations, which can be chosen immediately

Spoiler Mitsubishi v2 :

Spoiler Sumimoto v2 :

Spoiler Yasuda v2 :

Spoiler Mitsui v2 :

HungryForFood · Apr 17, 2019

To me, the main selling point of corporations is the scaler per franchise. So, when I mentioned each Zaibatsu should be like 2 corporations, I was more thinking about the scaler.

The scalers of the original corporations are:

Spoiler Scalers :

There's also some interesting secondary effects which we should not miss, eg: 20% building production.

So if I were to fit them around based on what would make sense with your description, while adding the GAP:

Spoiler Mitsubishi :

Spoiler Sumitomo :

Spoiler Yasuda :

Spoiler Mitsui :

The Culture and GP rate ones are probably the weakest fit, but at least they make sense gameplay-wise.

We can sort out the building and trade bonuses later, based on the original corporations the yield type is related to, as well as use them to balance (strong effect goes to weak yields, and vice versa).

For the Zaibatsu national wonder, I am not convinced that the Foreign Bureau is a good fit. I just don't see the Zaibatsu as related to diplomacy at all. Unfortunately there's not really any other national wonder we can use.

Since I intend Meiji to not be able to build the normal corporations, we can just make the Zaibatsu standalone, and discount its production cost from the Zaibatsu corporations. We can also give it some sort of minor bonus, to encourage AI (and players) to build it, eg free Stock Exchange.

pineappledan · Apr 17, 2019

I will preface this by saying that it's your compatibility mod so this is all entirely your call.

With 2 scaling yields, the :c5goldenage:

and 1 other, that's already 2x as good as a base corp. I guarantee you that making the most powerful, scaling aspect of corporations 3x as good will get out of hand extremely quickly. The alternative bonuses, like the :c5culture:

to specialists, the + :c5production:

building prod, etc, give an opportunity to differentiate the corporations more from each other without causing an infinite yield bloat.

Having slept on it, my suggestions for extra bonuses on offices may have been a bit excessive; the bonuses to all luxury resources on franchises is more than enough. I'll edit my previous post with a toned-down version

Also, yeah, it's not totally perfect, but the Foreign bureau is literally the only national wonder to come out in that era or the previous era that isn't tied to an ideology. If you are going to deploy the Zaibatsu using a national wonder then that's the only way to do it. If you can figure out another way then that works too.

Your Yasuda proposal is weaker than the Giorgio Armeier corporation.

Also, you were wondering about how to differentiate Meiji from the existing Japan civ, how to separate the two better, and how to put some distance between Emperor Meiji and the UA name "Meiji Restoration". Here are some ideas:

Have a text update in your mod that renames Japan as "Shogunate of Japan" and "Japanese Bakufu", and call Meiji's civ "Imperial Japan" and "Japanese Empire", in the civ name and civ desc. short, respectively.
Instead of calling emperor Meiji by his birth name, Mutsuhito, which never really sat right with me, why not change the UA name to "Fukoku Kyōhei"?

With that name change, you can stress the distinction in essence of the corporeal rule by military dictatorship, engendered by Nobunaga and the shogunate, with the divine rule by a heavenly emperor, engendered by Meiji. If the name of Japan is too close to the UA's name, the UA's name could be altered to Hachiman no Kami ('Spirit of Hachiman', the Kami of Samurai), or Kami-no-Michi ('Way of the Spirits')

Bhawb · Apr 17, 2019

I'd definitely caution having too many yields per corp due to the Order policy Nationalization. That policy gets out of hand very quickly if you have successful wars, and it is looking like Meiji Japan will likely have strong warring ability (which makes sense) and Corporations naturally lend themselves to wanting expansion. As an example, my current game I have over 100 science per city from Firaxis office alone, accounting for around half of my 6k science per turn. With Meiji I'd also be getting ~3k GAP per turn, and ~100 production per city.

Just something to keep in mind, that policy alone makes messing with Corporations very messy.

JFD's The Empire of Japan (Meiji) for Vox Populi (v 3)

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