JJ01-Moving up to Monarch

Tom you are right that we shouldn't stop city growth just because we have an unhealthy face. We only lose one food for each green face and the city will still grow as it has an abundance of food. Just that it will eventually limit the growth.

As I stated earlier, I am trying hard to learn about planning cities in advance and your discussion is great for that. Thanks.

By the way, my msn is in my profile. I am at +8GMT though, so may be completely out of sync time wise with you. You will be playing while I am sleeping generally.
 
Well as I see there is 2 posibilities:
1) settle in place - look like a good side, but not coastal.
2) move one tie left and settle on fresh warter coastal side.

Pros - coastal city
Cons - we loosing 3 floodplan ties.
We destroying 1 forest.

So, we have choise to move warrior diagonally right or diagonally left.

If we move warrior diagonally right on hill, we will posible see can we use loosing ties to some other town. If we move warrior diagonally left, we will look on one warter ties for posibility of picking up a food resource if we move settler left.
IN addition, I marked 2 ties that seems to stand out from surrounding.

They are posible hidden resources. I am not saying they contain hidden resources, but did you ever have to clean up forest to get access to horses, cooper or iron? I never, and I notices forest would never grow on top of them.
Capital generator tend to clean up jungle and put some forest in initial fat cross, but it can not put forest over special resource.

So, there is a good chance this ties contain a hidden resource, but not garanty. Personally I am unsure, should we move warrior?
 
I hadn't thought of the tile you've highlighted. It certainly looks promising to see that clearing there. I also hadn't thought of the resources not appearing in a forest. Might it be horse?

It will certainly be exciting as we complete AH, BW, and IW. However, I honestly feel that the starting position is the strongest avaliable to us by a long way. 5 floods, marble for the production bonus, silk's commerce, and enough grassland to set up the towns to turn this city, along with the palace's +8 commerce into beaker monster. Bureacuacy with the great library would give us a MASSIVE boost to science in from civil service to scientific method, and I think moving might cost us a large part of the cities science potential. As far as I can tell, for most people keeping up tech wise is the hardest part of the jump up to Monarch, so this strikes me as very important. Keep the debate coming though.

tplayfordwall@gmail.com if anybody wants to contact me on MSN - Kikinit, I've added you.
 
I agree that a move to the coast seems intriguing.

Pros: On coast, no wasted coast tiles. Adds a plains hill and more coastal tiles.
Cons: Loss of forest and 1 hammer at start. Loses two flood plains.

Though it would be nice to have a coastal capital, I don't think I can resist keeping the flood plains. A good plan would be to try and settle a strong coastal city as our second or third.

As it looks like I am playing the first turns, it would be nice to get some idea of our early objectives. Are we going for a religion, chopping a lot, etc.
I will play 20 turns and after that we should go to 15 for ancient and maybe classical times and ten after that.

In case this impacts anyones ideas, I moved the warrior diagonally left on the first turn, revealing a cow on the grassland tile two to the left of the settler.
 
Well, I am usually a big fan of coastal capitals and usually consider it a cardinal sin to settle one tile from the coast...BUT in this case I will recommend settling in place:

1) Losing the floodplains against gaining one food per coastal tile is a net loss
2) You have to love the plains hill hammer bonus from turn 1
3) Loss of overseas trade routes hurts less with the 6C per tile we will get by keeping those flood plains

I vote settle in place.

Regarding opening strategies, some kind of Oracle Slingshot seems a natural with the marble there. Code of Laws is definitely doable, maybe even Civil Service (that would give us a huge jump with this capital). If we do that, I would suggest BW->Wheel->Pottery->Med/Poly->Priesthood->Writing->CoL. With mining at start I typically go worker->chop worker->warrior->chop settler, but this may not leave enough forest to chop the Oracle (if need be) and may well be sub-optimal in any case, particularly if BW is delayed a couple of slots. I would like to hear others' thoughts and see what kind of numbers Mutineer crunches up in that calculator brain.
 
About move or not move you dicide.
Now, do we go after early religion or not?
If we do, it should be first tech we should start to research.
Again tougth decision. in order to make it a bit easier you can look at top 5 cities after first turn and as minimum you will see some of our opponents civilisations. Are there many others starting with mysticism?
If we go after early religion then probably it is best to go with warrior first -worker next and let capital grow to size 2 working floodplane and silk forest second for few more beakers. Tech wize we probably should consider reliegion tech - bronse working - agricalture -animal husbetry-well-pottery line.

If no early religion, then hunting (starting producing warrior and then switching warrior to scout) and using forest to have more shield when capital grow to size 2 and producing couple scouts befor worker could be valible alternative, especially if we alone on island and want to get best chance for hats.

So, do we feel lucky and try for early religion?
 
About time, it is normal speed, so probably standart 20-15-10-10-10 will do?

I found that many problems in game come from unfocused first turns and making them very long it become hurd to correct.
 
Okay, Mutineers 20-15-10-10-10 will do.

I think it is too much depending on luck to try and get an early religion. My suggested tech path would be something almost the reverse of Mutineers (Agriculture-AH-Pottery-BW-Tech up to oracle and go for confucianism). This might need modifications (I need to fit masonry in somewhere). I put bronze working later because The capital only has five forests and it would be nice to keep two or four to offset the loss of health from the flood plains.
 
Not sure we need Hunting that early, but I suppose the scouts will come in handy. Maybe wait to see how large the continent is and go for AH first? I generally go BW first for chopping and locating bronze, but I can see where delaying a bit would make sense (keeping forest health and getting cows pastured/FP Cottaged). Forgot about the need for Masonry in my earlier suggested path. Civil Service is probably not doable with Oracle.

Slingshot to CoL should give us semi-early religion (with Marble, my guess is around 1500 BC). I still think we should consider chopping a worker and maybe even a settler early on.
 
I meant Agriculture. You need it for both AH and Pottery. Maybe we should chop the second settler and a worker at that time from the next city. If anyone else comes and okays the strategy in the above two posts I will start playing. Build order: Warrior-Worker-Warrior-Settler?
 
Warrior-Worker-Warrior-Settler? this is agreewable.
About tech part. I wont to stress, that first: Bronse working is compalsory.
Second, it priority depends on how near opposition is. If opposition near you it should be second tech. To know where cooper is and to claim it become essintial. If opposition is war away, then it could be delayed.
 
Yeah, the build order for the CoL slingshot sounds good. I think we should discuss where to put the second city - although this will have to be subject to change in order to nab the copper. I would strongly favour a coastal city as the second, partly because we'll need the health from those fish sooner rather than later with those flood plains, and the forests being chopped - but mainly because it really looks like, although Delhi is in the middle of rich, fertile lands, there is a desolate arid desert in the natural expansion direction (as we can't build cities in the sea!!!)

Also what does everyone else feel about making a focused effort to get to Lit early to build the great Library in what will be our glorious scientific capital of Delhi - boosted by the golden age we'll get from our first prophet - and following the early Lit with being the first to music.

I've found that an early golden age can just give you the kick you need to push into the middle part of the tech tree, and when all the civs are still close together in score, it can help us get to a couple of techs that bit faster, and with a few smart trades we could stay ahead of the game tech wise. I'm strongly in favour of using golden ages to consolitade rather than to try and claw back a position.

If others agree then focusing research towards the great artist at music might be a good way to go after the slingshot.

Tom
 
Sorry but I haven't got much to add to all the discussion. The tech path to get Oracle sounds good as does the build order. I often do the worker first and then find that he hasn't got enough to do as I am going for religion or techs toward getting the oracle slingshot.

Tom, I think that with the limited information we have it does look like a Southern expansion is on the cards next. But by the time we get a settler out, we should have a much better picture to work with and plan where to go.

I guess we will have bronze working about the time we are building our settler so we should know where the copper is and can go for that if need be.

Off to bed now.. hopefully JeeJeep will have posted the first 20 turns by the time I wake up. Something to read over breakfast.
 
Greetings all. Holy cow, I sure have missed a lot of discussion since I last checked in! Although I have some thoughts on how to proceed, my main goal for this SG is to learn from it. So my comments are as much to clarify my own understanding as advocate any particular plan.

I usually do not go for an early religion, but instead look for an early conquest victim (and hopefully capture somebody else's holy city). Naturally that depends on how close the neighbors are. So my research path typically depends on how soon I plan on going to war. On the other hand, I have a bad habit of expanding too quickly and then killing my economy. Too many Civ III instincts there I guess...

Getting the Oracle does seem like a natural play since we have marble, and we can build 1/2 price temples with the spiritual trait. I like the slingshot to COL as well (1/2 price CH and another religion). So the research path suggested by rddc05 makes sense to me. Although if we get an early religion, I would not convert right away -- I want to see what the other AI religions are first because we will want to be on good terms with at least one of the leaders. Another wonder I want to be sure to get is the Great Library (also benefits from marble).

BTW I love this start -- plenty of forest, tons of FP for cottages, and hills for production. Unless our warrior uncovers something really compelling under the fog I would settle in place. Assuming we have enough happy and healthy resources to grow our capital it should be a real monster (it also makes me think that bureaucracy will be in our future). Again, I am playing mainly to learn here, so these are just observations. The important thing is that we are all on the same page with a coordinated strategy.
 
Wow, that is a doosie! I'm willing to stick with it if everyone else is though. Just need to get of that crappy little continent pronto.
 
every start on Monarch level is winnable. Could we have a roster?
We do neeed to know who is next and who is after whom. :)

But have to admit, start is scrappy. Don't we now sorry that out capital, best productive town is not on coast? It would be the only non coast town.
But I have to admit, on this kind of start surtan precision is requed, so, it is up to you folk.
 
Well, I was up next on the roster, but I will happily yield my turns to Mutineer to get this puppy going. But, let's see if anyone wants to re-roll.
 
:lol: Where's Gilligan?

Seriously though, I am up for giving it a go. The game would not be instructive if it were too easy.
 
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