JJ01-Moving up to Monarch

[Mutineer]

What I try to say that I can not explain, because ways to do it are flexible and depends on situation.
What I can do is to demostrate by showing in process and explain my thinking along the way.
But what most of people missing and your argument shows that is undestanding that advantage RIGTH NOW more important then posible loss in remote future.

Let me again explain, why for col I rejected to research road and masonry and connect Marble befor researching Oracle tech. Because it would cost as additional 5 turns well + 8 turns masontry = 13 turns and after that we still can not build Oracle faster, because we need to know writing to get CoL.
So, I sucrifyed efficiency of building Oracle for speed.
If we get 350 beakers COL it will more then compensate the fact that we spend 150 shield on it, not 75 shields. So, I do not care about efficiency, because it will cause as waster time on this research line complitly. Then we will loose MACH MORE.
Wasting Missionary for our own towns or wait untill we have chance to spend 60? shield to build one ourself is just Take way to mach time. Busdddism will spread to other AI and AI spread there first religion fast themself.
If we get there first, especially into there capital, they will spread OUR religion for free, not competitive religion.

 

[Mutineer]

and last peace of explanation.
In order to build Oracle I grow and optimise it for maximum continiues shield production. I repeat CONTINUES shield production, that needed to build wander. It is not the most Efficient shield production avalible.
The most efficien is whipping with Granary. Mostly because we are loosing food to unheal and because farmed floodplains will bring as more shields from whipping, then from working plain hills.

But I can not do it befor Bronse and pottery. I can whipe one's befor pottery because we loosing foood to unhealth so at the end we will not loose anything.
So, how I can use CONTINUEs stream of shield the most efficient way? By building wander. That just justification from local optimisation.
I can not say any more, it is late now. Se you all tomorrow.

 

[jeejeep]

The farms and cottages debate can wait because we can't cottage at the moment. We might as well farm them now and if we vote it isn't working when we research pottery we can always cottage over them.

For build order I would have to agree with Mutineer, without looking at the save, Oracle-Stonhenge-Settler(chop 1 forest). However, I don't know if we can grab Stonhenge this late. It will havebeen almost 50 turns from the start by the time it is finished.

Tech has to be Writing-BW-for this to work. After this I am thinking about Wheel-Pottery or maybe even fishing to do some exploring by boat.

 

[rddc05]

OK, I will weigh in on the debate. I favor mostly Mutineer's strategy for the following reasons:

1) We are committed to the Oracle slingshot, so the main trade-off at this point seems to be Stonehenge vs. Settler/worker. While it may appear that getting a second city going is important to keep up in tech, it will actually hurt us in the crucial short-term because of the added upkeep and the time it will take to get the second city doing anything of value (we will not have cottages for ~40 turns, sailing for longer). We cannot bump pottery up in the research order because we desperately need the whip quickly and need to locate bronze. Even if we did bump it up, it would be approx. 25 turns to get it. If there were danger of losing the city spot to the AI, I would advocate for the settler build, but that spot is safe for a good while, I think.

The extra two Great Prophet points are indeed worth it - saving 25 turns to Great Prophet. The money we will make from the shrine (2 gpt minimum, hopefully more) will help pay for the second city while keeping science at close to 100%. Let's say we get 4 gold per turn from shrine, that 25 turns is HUGE this early in the game for keeping research maxed.

Any other build in Delhi does not really help us right now. After bronzeworking, we can pop a settler quickly and get the new city paying for itself and doing research fairly rapidly.

2) I think farming floodplains is correct for the short term. We need the pop hammers. If it will be our GP city in the future (and this seems like a good idea) this also argues for farming the FP and keeping them.

3) The missionary should go to Mansa, as he may be able to spread it to others and within his own borders; we will not be able to do so for quite some time due to lack of trade routes.

4) I don't think we are as far behind in tech as you believe, but to the extent that we are, I suspect we will catch up after alphabet by trading with Mansa. He won't have Code of Laws for a while and we can focus on techs he doesn't have for trade after that.

5) The great lib. debate is a little off the immediate subject, but I will comment on it: if it goes in Delhi, the loss is not that great; the only thing the southern science city will have that Delhi probably won't is an Academy. Two free scientists (12 lightbulbs) * 50% is 6 beakers per turn, not a great loss vs. having the scientists in our eventual gp city (12 Scientist GPP/turn with Nat'l Epic, 18 with Pacifism). With no sea-trade routes, I'm not sure that an academy in Delhi is even worth it.

Questions:

1) Any possibility of Axe/sword rushing Mansa if we get bronze/iron and after the second city? Might hurt our tech trades but get us out of the expansion hole. Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[jeejeep]

I don't think rushing mansa is a good idea. Logistically, he is just to far away and if we took his cities the upkeep would cost us too much right now. Maybe is there is nowhere else to expand, but otherwise no.

 

[rddc05]

Let me also defend the slingshot choice.

We sacrificed early pottery to get to Writing faster because the Oracle would likely be gone had we gone wheel-pottery-writing. BUT, let's compare if we had gotten pottery first (missing Oracle) and cottaged the FP at Delhi and in a new city. Suppose we could have worked 3 cottages an average of 20 turns earlier than we otherwise would have. Even at 100% science (which would not be possible with a second city), that is only 240 beakers spread out over early techs vs. 350 for CoL in one early pop, and we will trade it for at least 250 beakers worth of techs, perhaps more if we meet more AI.

The slingshot was a good choice.

 

[TomPW]

Okay - I know when I'm beaten. I'll play my turns after rddoc5 sometime tommorow if he's had time - although it may be 24 hours from this post since I'm working nearly all day tommorow.

Tom

 

[rddc05]

Tom, you may be absolutely right, and this plan may fall on its face. I'm only about 50/50 on Monarch games, so I'm definitely no expert. I'd like to hear what everyone else has to say about what to do also. We got screwed by the map generator and we're gonna need everyone's input and a good bit of luck to pull this off. Anyone else want to chime in?

I'll try and play the turns tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Kikinit]

Just to let you all know that I am still here and reading avidly. A lot of this discussion is quite a bit more than I would normally worry about and is probably why I have so much trouble at Monarch. Too unfocused and thoughtless.

Having said that, I can see Mutineer's reasoning for using the Oracle for CoL and thus getting confucianism. This makes good sense to me and I fully support skipping masonry to make sure we get the Oracle and have writing done at about the same time. To get masonry first to quarry the marble and build the Oracle faster will actually be slower to get us CoL in this case.

I am a bit confused about stonehenge though. We don't have stone available and will need to think about more workers and settlers soon. It will help us to get free obelisks in each city, but we will have a religion from CoL and can easily build a few missionaries to spread our religion and get that little bit of culture in each city. Monotheism shouldn't be expensive for us to get OR and allow us to build missionaries.

Surely we cannot delay cottages too long. I am not a big cottage spammer, in fact in my SP games I probably don't build anywhere near enough, but I would have thought we need to get a few going to keep our commerce -> research going strong.

On rddc's question about rushing Mansa, I think we need to see if we can get copper and iron where we need them first. I also believe that his cities will cost us too much at the moment. Having said that, I often find that an early war against one of your close in opponents sets up a prince level game. At this level though I'm not sure.

 

[Mutineer]

I really need to run warrian game which pronhibit building a single cottage befor representation or Military Tradition or Replacement parts are known.
On monarch dificulty and rundom civ. I am sure people will do mach better then they useally do in monarch games if they start to focus on what is avalible right now, then cottagess everywhere with out thinking.
My suggestion, who is on, just go ahaed and try my plan, try to realise it in optimum way and see how it will go. Russian have saying: " You are not going to loose a cow?" Raw translation.
We probably got poorest starting position posible, so, what the matter?

 

[rddc05]

Everything as per the plan. Stonehenge in 1 turn, BW in 3, missionary and warrior scouting Mansa's territory.

 

[Bigfoot]

I too have been reading this with interest, even though I have not commented much. I was surprised to see that we did not research BW first, but then I don't have that much experience on this level. I can see why we had to take the research path we did to get COL from the Oracle. Building Stonehenge looks OK, even if it was a bit counter-intuitive. The extra GP points will get us the shrine (and extra commerce) that much faster, and it will contribute GP points throughout the game even if the wonder itself expires rather quickly. The only thing that still has me scratching my head is the decision to build farms on the FP tiles when we are already at maximum health and happiness. I guess it is consistennt with using the whip, but I try not to use the whip in my capital unless I absolutely must. Eventually we should go for commerce in our capital was well, IMHO. We cannot build cottages yet anyway, so no real harm there.

As to war, I am getting nervous with our lack of military tech. If our second city (to the south) is going to be a commerce city, then I think the next city (to the east, by the rice) should be dedicated to military builds. Hopefully we have some copper or iron we can hook up. At least we have horses. By the time we are ready to take on Masu we wiill need cats for sure, since he is likely to have all ancient age resources plus a pretty good amount of culture by then. That assumes, of course, that we will fight him at all. Perhaps that is assuming too much...

Anyway, this has already been quite an interesting exercise, and I do trust Mutineer's leadership. I look forward to seeing what else transpires in the next couple of rounds.

 

[Mutineer]

Hope you do not min I load save and played 3 turns untill discovery of bronse working. We have Bronse. Pictures, saves and new propouse plan coming up.
IN future, it is probably a good idea for a person up to play not fixed amount of turns, but to the point where decidsion should be made and new plan formulated.

 

[Mutineer]

3 turns.
Our warrior moved left on Jungle hill and bravely died to Barbarian archer next turn. Missionary exploring Masta territory and I think it need to try to explore further and may be find somebody else if any. It is possible that we are on big continent. (See picture.) It can explore outside safety of Masta space by using only 1 movement point/turn. In that case it always can retreat back if come with contact with Barbarians.
It is best to use it to spread religion not to Masta, as Masta has it's own and will not spread our. Only spread to Masta if there is no one else on island (I really want other neighbors)

Research Bronze working - well.
Plan modification.
First, with cooper in Fat Cross of the Capital whipping settler become a bad idea, as there is no race for cooper. In addition, with working cooper mine, Continues shield production become more optimum then slavery. So, we would not need pottery straight away. So, what tech we do need straight away then?

All our propose city cites have 1 sea resource in Fat Cross. We are going to have our second city soon and first think it should build will be Fish Boat for sea resource. Sea resources bring health. In all propose city sites have sea resource 2 ties away, but we have guaranty 10 turn border expansion with Stonehenge.

So, research path Well - Fishing -
WE will need pottery for grow and some whipping in our new cities.
So, research path Well - Fishing - Pottery.

First settler should go south, as it is our best city cite and it has Horses in Fat Cross.
Chariots are probably the best Barbarian defense early on for as as they are cheap and mobile and we do not have forest/jungle near by.
In addition, chariot with sentry promotion (Flanking-> sentry) perfect for fog busting.
Our only worker should follow settler in order to improve special resource (cow) and start roading to capital.
When second city border expand, we better improve Horses special resource and connect it to our cities.
In addition chariots are best available unit for exploring right now, as they usually can handle one barbarian archer and have 2 movement points.
We already have warrior fog busting near cite.

We need to connect health and cooper resource to our capital and produce settler for red northern dot. I have special plan for this city.
It will produce as GS for Philosophy, but that is a bit far away.

I think we had reserve warrior fortifyed in the capital. it can go and protect this city cite.

So, build order in capital Settler - worker - settler- barrack - chariot - chariot
(if barbarian do not force as to build a bit more military earlier).

South city build order
Fish boat - granary - library
North city build order same.
Fish boat - granary - library

Granary/library should be whipped as soon as possible, as cities are shields poor.
Priority for workers should be special resource - connect them and city to capital.

So priority one - expand
priority 2 - defend
priority 3 - explore

 

[Mutineer]

More picture.

warrior moving to lift this big of fog there in corner in posible city cite I left unlift.

 

[TomPW]

I'll play my turns when I get back from work. Mutineer, you suggested us not having ten turns each time, so how many should I take?

 

[Mutineer]

Let's make it 10 base +- depends on where is some important decision to make or plan to formulate.
If you find something that could effect our plan early then it is probably better to stop early. Or if tech will be discovered, something important build 1-2-3 more turns up then continue your turns untill that point. How does it sound?

 

[Kikinit]

Nice stuff Mutineer and rddc.

Great stuff that the copper is in our BFC. At least something has gone in our favour.

That land off to the East is also interesting. I hope that side is connected to the part of land that we are on and we can find some more AI's. I like the idea of carefully using the missionary to scout out the area beyond mansa. If there are others on our continent then he is likely blocking them coming onto our peninsula. I like mutineer's suggestion that the missionary should be used to spread religion beyond mansa too. It is a bit wasted on Mansa.

Tom. I think Mutineer was suggesting that you play your 10 turns unless there is something important that happens before 10 are up and a decision is needed to be made by the group.

Edit: Cross-posted with Mutineer. I agree with Mutineer that due to most of us stepping up to Monarch, it would be advisable to do 10 turns but stop early for important decisions or go an extra few to complete something important. It makes a lot of sense to have breaks when there are important things to discuss.

 

[rddc05]

Not to get too far ahead, but what do you guys think about Sailing after Wheel-Fishing-Pottery? If there is nobody else besides Mansa on the island we could take our missionary exploring and maybe take a settler/escort to a decent city location (patch of land north over the sea or to the eastern island?).

 

[Bigfoot]

Regarding the dot map, why not move the city to the N S->SE so it can work some hills too? That effectively converts a worthless desert tile to 2F / 1H, and the city will still have fish, rice and forest in range.