JJ01-Moving up to Monarch

[jeejeep]

Roster:
Jeejeep
rddc05
TomPW
Kikinit
Mutineer
Bigfoot

The roster is on the first page also. It is not in any particular order so we can switch it around if we want to.

Continuing is good with me, but if so we have to plan a new strategy. If you look at the ocean north of Delhi in the save, you can see that there is another island/a peninsula of our island that would be accessible by galley. I suggest expanding there (if the terrain is any good) after placing our second city to the south.

Screenshot of other land
View attachment 121670

 

[TomPW]

Oh dear... so much desert... I wouldn't want my first in on Monarch to come after a reroll, so I vote to continue. However, if we do fail, we can always start again together. I like the idea of using galleys to get to that land to the north, and it looks like the second city spot is pretty good.

Tom

 

[jeejeep]

rddc05: I guess you are up. Good luck!

I started research on the wheel but it has only been one turn and it can be vetoed. The warrior is timed to finish about when the city grows.

 

[rddc05]

K, looks like we're seeing this one through Skipper. The offer stands to yield my slot to Mutineer (I"ll switch places with him if he wants). We might could use some serious skill getting this puppy airborne.

For the sake of clarity, we are all playing 20 turns the first round?

If Mutineer does not want to switch slots, I will check back to get more input on the (revised) game plan.

 

[Kikinit]

That does look like a lot of desert, but I wouldn't feel good about rolling again. The point is learning to play to what you are dealt. This will force us to rethink already.

Should we bring forward research of sailing to get out and find our adversaries and also to find if there is any more hospitable land. We can get a few cities on our island but they won't be the best and we do want to be selective at this point in the game when we can't support many and keep our economy afloat.

I didn't see a turn report. Are you just holding back to see if we are going to continue?

 

[Bigfoot]

I am dying to know what lies under the fog to the NE. Maybe the landmass is more extensive than it seems? At a minimum let's hope that there are islands within reach of a galley, otherwise this could be very tough.

 

[Mutineer]

OK, I will take it and think and play when I can back from work.
I live IN Japan, so it is 9:45 AM here right now.

 

[Kikinit]

One positive, at least it won't be too hard to deal with the fog and stop all the barbarians that will start appearing soon. A few strategically placed warriors and we will not have to worry about them for a while.

I too am interested to see how far this island goes. Maybe it links back to that piece of land that has been highlighted across the oceans. A few more turns exploring should tell us.

We are going to end up in a situation where we may have some distance between our capital and the rest of the cities. Luckily we are organised so it will reduce the effect of this. We will have to keep in mind that we may want to get Versailles in addition to the Forbidden Palace. Of course that is a long way off yet. Getting ahead of myself.

 

[jeejeep]

Sorry Kikinit, I was holding back. However the only things that really happened were that we researched Agriculture (turn 9) and AH (turn 19) and I build the first worker (turn 18), who is now pasturing the cows. We also got 36 gold from one hut and maps from another.

 

[Mutineer]

Pre turns speculation.
I decided to put it here as people seem to want this game to be a learning game.
So, I decided to put explanation of my thinking process and what factors I use when decide on course of action.

Current situation – we are probably alone on island, but not sure yet. It is possible that we have very long winded continent and our side of it is complete scrap.

Currently I see a place for 1 good city and 2 fishing villages. Most ties we will work will be water ties and all cities are coastal cities.
So, Great lighthouse and colossus look attractive. Very attractive. We probably can get cooper to speed up colossus (unknown yet), but where we can build this 2 wanders? The only good productive city would be our capital and it is not coastal. Aaaaaa… Shi………

Would not work, unless we find some good productive city to settle.

Ok, let’s look on what we got then and try to do best we can with stuff in hand.
We have marble. What early wanders we can build with marble?
Pantheon, Oracle, Great library and national wanders.
Oracle, free technology and we already researching well. But what can we get out of it?

If people read about Civil service or even Col shot from Oracle – I will say people are dreaming. Not on Monarchy or higher difficulty. Well, it is possible to get Col, may be, if you lucky. But we do not want to rely on luck.

So, what we can get from it for sure?
Metalworking with would work perfectly for colossus, but AAaa….. Shi………
Monarchy – thin to consider.
Let’s look on situation from other point of view.
What do we need to progress in the game?

Our middle term target is – find source of happiness. Hmm… so far we see only one Alpha it source of happiness. So, what in depended sources of happiness possible?
Representation with Pyramids – but we do not have stone or lot of forest. To try to get Pyramids with out stone will fall, or even if not we will spend to mach resources so we only will fall behind. Dismiss pyramids.
Monarchy – and we can always get it from Oracle. One more + to take Monarchy from Oracle. It is relatively cheap tech, but it would have immediate effect.
What other alternatives?
Religion. We bypassed early religion and with out save I do not know how many was already taken. Chances on early religion are slim. From other point of view we will take a few religion techs to get Oracle. Can we get religion?
Ok, if we research Polytheism (possible Pantheon with Marble), priesthood, and then what?
Writing for CoL? But will be benefit from CoL Straight away? No, we would not. Thought, there is possible land and there may be a good town cites and relatively far away, so, courthouses might be needed. But again, we will not be there soon. Wait, CoL gives religion! Ok. And CoL is one of alternative for Philosophy.

OK, Col it is with back up for Monarchy.

Now what we need? If we bypass Bronze working, expansion we need..

Finish Well -> masonry ->Polytheism->Priesthood-> writing why building Oracle. Hopefully get Oracle just as writing finished.
With out Bronze working for a long time.
Now, do we really need masonry? Oracle only 150 shields. 75 with marble.
How many shields we can make out of our town max? 2 hills. 1 1/2 forest. 1 cow
2*3+2+2+2city – expected amount = 12.
150 /12 = 13. Writing 120 beakers, with 2 prerequisites will be cheaper a bit.
Not sure how mach, let’s say 108 beakers and I think (from memory) capital will make 8/turn =13 turns. So, we do not need masonry and then we do not need well.
Then plan become – switch to Polytheism-> priesthood = ~18 turns.

Conclusion: Plan to get Col ASAP from Oracle, need to beat AI.

Check when start game what religions already taken. Check what we can build in 18 turn and grow capital to size 4 and build 2 mines. Consider saving 2 turns by researching Meditation instead of Polytheism. Oracle expected in 18+13 = 31 turns.

 

[Mutineer]

OK, played my save.
Turn 0) Buddism fidal, Hinduism is not discovered yet.
Switched research to Politheism.

turns 1-10 groving city with max posible speed, mining hills why producing warriors for fog busting.
Turn 5 Hinduism fidal. Based from what I saw we had 100% chance for early religion in this game.

turn 10 Politheism-Prieshood.
turns 11-17 growing city, mining hill, continue to produce warriors.
trun 15
Meat Masta, found that we are on big winged continent and Blocked by Masta.
Send warriors back for fog busting, we need all 4 around as there is a pach that constantly generate Barbarian warriors. Our warrior so far was successfull, but if it generate archer... We can not have more then 4 units out of our land, as we will have to pay upkeep.

Turn 17. Prieshood-writing.
Writing in 11, Oracle in 12.

We should get Col from it.

Now, We are blocked by Masta that is good and bad. Good - Masta not likly to atack as.
Bad Masta is a whore, he will open border to everyone and let everyone to attack as. Bad as he is difficult to attack early on, as skirmished provide a strong cheap defence.
Bad as he is Buddist.
Good, as he will ignore religion differences. One can trade, have open border with Masta even if he hates you.

Deli reconfigured for 0 grow and exec build/research time.
As you see form picture, writing will be researched 1 turn befor Oracle will be finished.
Continue to farm Floodplans. Please watch that you not farm spot that Deli work and it grow, as it will be a big problem, as we do not have slavery yet and we will just loose all collected food and probably mess up our col shot.
I suggest to convert, as it will let Capital to grow to size 6 after WE finish Oracle. Masta is tollerant neybor.
Propoused tech path. Writing - Bronse working (we need to know where Bronse is, if any) - Well- pottery.

Dot map subject to cooper. Seen we do not know where cooper is, I am not sure where our second city should be. In addition, we can not cut any forest - look on our health level. Slavery will help as a lot.

I will surprise you with propoused build order.

Oracle - Stonehaige (10 turns)- setler

Reasons
1) we will save on Obeliscs for border expancion.
2) We do not know where to put setler untill bronse come
3) It should take same time as bronse working
4) after bronse working finsihed and we switch to slavery we can let deli to grow to 6 and 1-2 turns later(depends on how many hammer detorate) instantly whipe setler for 3 population or less, depends on how long bronseworking will take.
5) It is additions 2 prophet GP points

 

[TomPW]

Mutineer - I just want to check a couple of things with you - just to clarify what you've said.

Continue to farm Floodplans. Please watch that you not farm spot that Deli work and it grow, as it will be a big problem, as we do not have slavery yet and we will just loose all collected food and probably mess up our col shot.

Surely, we are going to cottage those floodplains - hence getting a boost in commerce while feeding the citites. Thats why we were all so thrilled to see those tiles, for commerce...

Second - you mentioned stonehenge. I strongly feel that stonehenge is not needed. We are going to found a religion with the Oracle, and its confuciansim which means we get a free missionary, which we can use to convert our first city. I'd rather put the shields from stonehenge into shields that don't give our cities a boost that runs out at calender, but to give them a religion which will give them culture for the rest of the game - boost our shrine incomine AND give our cities all the religious benifits.

My proposed build order would be Oracle - Monastry - settler (whip) - settler - (chop) - worker

rddco5 - I'm sorry for asking all these questions ahead of your turn, but this game is about learning, and I am not convinced at all that Stonehenge is the best strategy.

Tom

 

[rddc05]

Nicely done, Mutineer. I think we can make this game work for us, just not with the typical strategies. I switched places with Mutineer, so I reckon TomPW is up?

 

[TomPW]

Well - if I am, it would be better for me to drop down a place. I would not feel comfortable following the stonehenge build until the reasons I outlined in the above post have been countered. I strongly feel it is the wrong move. I'm working in a pub and I'm heading in for a 3-finish shift, which won't see mee home for another 11 hours or so in a moment, and I'm leaving in a couple of hours, so it makes sense for you to take your turn here.

I would implore you however, not to do so until you are satisfied with the stonehenge build, or the alternative strategy which I suggested, or another build order that we haven't thought of yet - but please do not take your turn until there has been some more discussion about the build order - and all members of the team are satisfied.

I wouldn't be too keep on discarding stonehenge as an idea either - Mutineer is that much more experienced than us, so he may well have reasons for Stonehenge that I've missed, and until he gets a chance to put his arguement across. Remember even if all disagree - he's the one who has actually won on Monarch before, and that has to count for a lot.

Tom

 

[Mutineer]

TOM PH we can not build monastery, because we do not know nessesary technology. Yes, stonehage will expire soo, but befor it does it will provide as with free 2 Prophets GP. That mean that we will build srine mach faster.

I would rather use our Missionary to spead religion to AI (escort it to Masta and use it to explore a bit and try to convert some one who does not have religion yet. Insted of letting Masta spread his Buyddism to other AI.

So, escort Missionary to Masta theretory and try to find some one who bordered with Masta. At that moment we will have writing = open borders.

Yes, we will not build any cottagess here. Out cottage city will be city south of capital. Our Capital will be our main Production/wanders/ GP source mostly from wanders on the start of the game. We do not have and will not have any other shield rich city for a while. When we feel that we do not need supper production capital any longer we can move capital to south city, which will be Coastal city and enjoy supper commercial capital for Burocracy abuse.

So, that propouse city specialisation.
Capital - production/gp farm
South - Commercial centre.

No single cottage at capital.
Cappital in short turn will be our slave abuse city for spur grow, then production/gp city then we will see.
Again, I want to ask NOT TO chop any trees in Capital. We have -2 food right now from unhealth. Situation will improve a bit when we connect resources, but I want rapidly grow our towns, mach faster then people useally do.

 

[TomPW]

OK, I'm afraid I must disagree with your strategy here. The capital has the floodplains we need to get ourselves a cottage paradise, and from what I've seen of the screenshots we don't have that to the south. Anyway - there is nothing that says we should not only have one city with reasonable commerce.

Wonders such as the great Library give a science boost to the city they are built in, so if we built that in the capital it would make sense for the capital to have the cottages. The main problem for all of us jumping up to Monarch has been keeping up in the tech race. If we wait until later to get our science city set up, it may be too late for us to claw it back.

You also say you want to grow our towns, but do not advocate building any cottages - I assume you mean cities here. The unhealthy faces only take away one food, and do not stop a citizen from still being useful to us, as an unhappy face would. I see no reason not to work on cottaged floodplains, get the production boost, and allow ourselves a few unhealthy faces - because by working those floodplains we can offset the unhealthy effects.

Although we cannot build a monastry now, we'll have a free missionary from the founding anyway. I have reconsidered the need for monastries remembering that we are organised and can afford to have organised religion once we get monotheism, not only will this give us a boost when building in our cities, but we will be able to produce missionaries without wasting time building the monastries.

Stonehenge will not produce GPPs after it goes obselete, so in my opinion its use is VERY VERY limited here.

While I understand what you are saying about us not having any other shield rich cities for a while I do not think that we need to shoot ourselves in the foot and knock ourselves out of the early tech race just for a bit of extra production. Once we've got calender, and the silk hooked up we can grow that big more - work cottages and at least one of the hills, maybe both.

Prioritising calender for this makes stonehenge an even less attractive proposition in my judgement.

What do other people think about this?

 

[Mutineer]

We do not need calendar, as we have only one calendar resource and it has forest on it. I would abtain cutting it for some time.
GL does not increase sci production, it only give free 2 free scientists. There main effect is to provide GP points.
Oracle will produce 2 gp points and stonehage will produce 2 gp points. so, with bouth we will have 4 gp points. Prophet in 25 turn to build Srine which will automatically spread our religion for as. With out it it will take 50 turns for GP to be born.
And I repeat, we better use out missionary to spread religion to other AI and find a friend, some one like Alex to be our lap dog. And as soon we do it - the better. It is all about speed.

 

[TomPW]

We do not need calendar, as we have only one calendar resource and it has forest on it. I would abtain cutting it for some time.
GL does not increase sci production, it only give free 2 free scientists. There main effect is to provide GP points.
Oracle will produce 2 gp points and stonehage will produce 2 gp points. so, with bouth we will have 4 gp points. Prophet in 25 turn to build Srine which will automatically spread our religion for as. With out it it will take 50 turns for GP to be born.
And I repeat, we better use out missionary to spread religion to other AI and find a friend, some one like Alex to be our lap dog. And as soon we do it - the better. It is all about speed.

Those two free specialists are huge, especially when you combine them with the multipliers you have in a science city, libraries, academy (which we'd get wtih the GL), universities and so on. I'm still in favour of making Delhi the commerce city - keeping up has to be our priority at this stage - and even if we were to put cottages at the second city, why can't we have multiple cities with cottages? We won't keep up with the AI's with just one scientific city.

You have also said that we cannot grow Delhi anymore, but there is nothign wrong with putting up cottages on the floodplains we are working for a smaller commerce boost right now. Why take 3 food and one commerce when we can have three food and 2 or even 3 commerce - even if that is only temporary.

The stonehenge strategy still seems like a real waste to me - I already outlined in my last post that we didn't need the free missionary for ourselves, as we are organised and can afford organised religion as soon as monotheism kicks in - so by all means, lets try and find an atheist AI with him - we can get our own missionaries for our own cities, but I am still convinced that we do not need stonehenge.

 

[Mutineer]

we will not have monotheism for about 30 more turns minimum. We have other technologies with would be needed RIGT NOW.
I found that people coplitly fixated on cottagess on this board. I will garanty you that we will not have any problem to keep up technologically. There are other, batter ways to do it and I can not explain every posible way to do it. I just can not, it take to mach time. Please, trust me a bit.

 

[TomPW]

Stonehenge won't be around for ten turns after the Oracle, and that is still 12 turns away - so its 22 turns away anyway, - and with your build order we won't have a settler for even longer after that. Anyway, we are obviously not going to agree on this, so I'd like to find out what the rest of the team have to say. For me stonehenge is the wrong move.

EDIT: I'm going out very soon, so I won't be able to continue discussing this with you - when I get back I'll have another look, but in the meantime could you please explain at least some of these methods of keeping up tech wise to us - you don't have to do them all.

Don't worry - I'm not a cottage fanatic, but do think that if we don't build them on the floodplains we are missing a HUGE oppertunity.

Tom