Joan d'Arc or Napoleon?

[kundor]

Yes, I'd say the major problem with Napoleon Bonaparte as French leader would be the fact that he was Italian...

If they wanted a female, you can't go wrong with Marianne...plus they wouldn't have had any arguments that she looked wrong, since she could look however they wanted her to look...I think that would be quite cool, in fact...

 

[elfstorm]

Napoleon was Frances greatest ever leader - by a mile.

You only have to look at the material written on him and the interest he generates to see this. Louis XIV? Degualle? They don't even come close. Charlemange was German (a Frank).

Napoleon fought nearly 60 major battles and won virtually all of them. His armies marched from Moscow to Portugal. He reformed the French law (Code Napoleon), and his version is still used today (not just in France either). Louis XIV would be a pretty good choice as leader but he was no Napoleon.

Joan was never leader of France and although she is a very interesting figure historically (one of very few women ever to lead an army), she not only wasn't particularly successful, but it's debatable just how important she was. Some new historical thinking suggests that England lost the hundred year war because her parliament and nobles weren't keen on supporting an expensive foreign war and with-held funding. Also don't forget, the war lasted another 23 years after Joan's death.

Incidently, if you look in the Editor at France you'll see that they have the following settings:
Favoured Government: Republic
Shunned Government: Monarchy

Huh????????????? Joan fought and died for the French Monarchy, surely if she is leader France should be set to favour Monarchy?

 

[Kefka]

Originally posted by cephyn
Joan of Arc is a horrible choice -- i have few french friends who were actually appalled. They would have preferred Napoleon, but even more so there was a consensus that Louis XIV or Charlemagne, or even De Gaulle would have been far superior choices. I agree, and add Richelieu to the list.

As for Cleo, she's just silly in Civ3. Egypt was in its waning days by the time she was around. If they really wanted a female, a far better choice would have been Ma'at-ka-Ra Hatshepsut, a Female Pharaoh of Egypt.

Im pretty sure they used cleo cause she is more well known and they didn't want hundreds of people wondering
ma hacka hat suit?
Ma hacka hu shepard?
ma atk rahat shepard?
mat ka rah p sut?

HOW DO YOU SAY IT? I DONT KNOW!!!!
my brain hurts :crazyeyes

 

[Zachriel]

Ramses

 

[Supercilious]

Oh yes, anyone with the vaguest knowledge of Egyptian history would have chosen Ramses II who reigned very sucessfully for 67 years.

But then, again, Firaxis wanted to be cravenly PC, which is why they picked so many females. I'm surprised they didn't pick Hillary Clinton for the U.S. leader. God forbid.

 

[gpsmith]

How about Jean Reno as the french leader. He was very good in Leon, and other films.

Apologies if someone has already suggested this.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by kundor
Yes, I'd say the major problem with Napoleon Bonaparte as French leader would be the fact that he was Italian...

As France got Corsica three months BEFORE Napoléon's birth, then Napoléon was French (whatever he thought he was).

 

[Rob in TN]

Not sure that argument holds water...

Would you tell all the French born between about 1940 to 1944 that, whatever they thought they were, they were REALLY German?

Or that the founding fathers of the USA were always going to be English deep down?

Interesting that the PBS articles says he grew up hating the French.

On the subject of the Franks - I always thought that's where France got it's name from - so how does that make C not French?

Interetsing that there are a lot of 'great' (using the term advisedly) leaders out there who weren't from the countries they're associated with. Cleo, Napoleon, Hitler (Austrian)

 

[elfstorm]

Until the age of 11 Napoleon spoke Italian. It was only when he went to a French school on the mainland he learned French.

But Napoleon always saw himself as French.

 

[Supercilious]

And George Washington was born a British subject, and Hitler was born in Austria, and Bismarck was really Prussian, and Catherine the Great was actually a German princess, etc, etc.

 

[hzm]

Napoleon made France a great military power, it doesn't matter if he was born there. That argument is a waste of time.

 

[Ironikinit]

Well, yes, it's a waste of time. I have time to waste, therefore I will argue.

While the game itself refers to the leaders as, well, leaders, I think of them as the "national spirit". It's goofy to think of a single person running a nation the way we do in the game, let alone for thousands of years. The leader concept gives the various cultures a face and personality to identify with or to dislike.

I like having Joan in the game. She's a nice patsy. If Napoleon was running it, France would just be yet another dick driven aggro civ to fight. As it is, France is a friendly ally.

 

[elfstorm]

I don't see why Napoleon's France would have to be aggressive. As he used to boast (often) he never declared war. All his campaigns as Emperor were conducted in "self-defence" after another country declared war on him. Because, he argued, he could mobilise faster and because of his tatics he would then carry the war to them.

Or so he said. Lets face it his foreign policy was often very aggressive and his opponents were usually pushed into corners and felt they had no alternative.

As for a single person running an Empire as we do in the game thats a good point. I'd like to see 'Master of Magic' style Generals whom you could recruit... ah but that is an entirely different matter.

 

[irish_soldier]

Originally posted by cephyn
...If they really wanted a female, a far better choice would have been Ma'at-ka-Ra Hatshepsut, a Female Pharaoh of Egypt.

Or Nefertiti (spelled wrong, sorry) who is the most famous female pharoah.

If anything is a throwback to pc it would have to be Japan and Russia. Even though Japan reached its military peak in WW2, Firaxis would never ever pick one of the WW2 dictators such as Tojo or Hirohito (the Emporer). As for Russia, it probably would have made more sense to pick either a Soviet Premier, such as Stalin or Kruschev, or (more practically) Czar Nicholas or Peter the Great, the best known of all of Russia Czars, than little known Catherine, who was just a pc pandering to women (to whom I hold nothing against ).

My final gripe is with England. I would have much rather seen a great English Monarch or Prime Minister than Elizabeth. In my opinion Churchill, Victoria, or Henry VIII would have made better leaders.

 

[irish_soldier]

Originally posted by Supercilious
I'm surprised they didn't pick Hillary Clinton for the U.S. leader. God forbid...

I wouldn't have bought the game... or better yet... America would be the first Civ I'd wipe out.

Well if that isn't patriotic I don't know what is!

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by irish_soldier


I wouldn't have bought the game... or better yet... America would be the first Civ I'd wipe out.

Well if that isn't patriotic I don't know what is!

Truer words were never posted!!

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by irish_soldier


I wouldn't have bought the game... or better yet... America would be the first Civ I'd wipe out.

Well if that isn't patriotic I don't know what is!

Amen, brother! :slay:

 

[Ironikinit]

Regardless of the motives involved for including Catherine, she is not little known and is called "the Great" for a reason.

Of course, the "Napoleon wasn't really French" criticism applies to Catherine, who was German.

 

[Octavian X]

Can't remember who said this earlier, but is ironic how Joan of Arc in Civ III shuns the monarchy. Her whole purpose in fighting was to she her cherished dophan (bad spelling, french for the heir to the king) rise to the French throne, which the English claimed.
You have to admit, though, she helped reconquer France in more hopeless conditions. Napoleon had all the armies, and funding he needed, and was able to silence the critics in his country. Joan had to convince many to people to follow her, couldn't always get the money she needed, and she was unable to silence the internal critics.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Octavian X
Can't remember who said this earlier, but is ironic how Joan of Arc in Civ III shuns the monarchy. Her whole purpose in fighting was to she her cherished dophan (bad spelling, french for the heir to the king) rise to the French throne, which the English claimed.
You have to admit, though, she helped reconquer France in more hopeless conditions. Napoleon had all the armies, and funding he needed, and was able to silence the critics in his country. Joan had to convince many to people to follow her, couldn't always get the money she needed, and she was unable to silence the internal critics.

Dauphin.

BTW, did you know that one of her top generals, and a marshal of France, was a major mass murderer and pedophilie?? It's true!! http://shanmonster.bla-bla.com/witch/witches/gilles.html