josh4bs' attempt at getting better

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Chariot rush would eliminate Rags from the game quite early, which isn't a bad thing from what I can tell. If that is the direction, Wheel would need to be before BW. Barracks would help the rush a bit...but do I sacrifice the loss of workers/settlers for that???

Rush Calculator

I got sort of interested in that question a while back, the thread links to my analysis.

Exec summary: yes, of course you sacrifice workers and settlers for the rush - it ain't a mosey! But for rushing purposes it's not clear that the barracks is more cost effective than the equivalent number of hammers invested in units.


Also - you're play will improve if you think ahead. Once you have committed yourself to building a barracks, you know that you have time before you need the horses hooked up; the wheat should be improved by now.

On this map, at this level, it's a minor sequencing problem, unlikely to change the outcome. But if you are trying to get better, you need to recognize broad categories of errors (like not planning ahead) so that you can adopt more successful habits.

 

[josh4bs]

VoU,
Thank you ever so much for that information. I attempted a rush with 7 Chariots with a Strength promotion from the barracks...as you already know, it didn't go well. Now that I have seen your calculations, I will forgo the barracks and double the chariots and give it another run.

You are correct on the "thinking ahead" thing...and I'm trying, that is why I posted this thread. To receive insight and help that I wouldn't think of on my own.

Thank you to all that have responded so far!

 

[s.bernbaum]

Unless the maintenance would really crash your economy, it is usually worthwhile to keep an AI capital, rather than raze it, because they are always in a good location and partially developed for you already.

 

[barbertje]

VoU,
Thank you ever so much for that information. I attempted a rush with 7 Chariots with a Strength promotion from the barracks...as you already know, it didn't go well. Now that I have seen your calculations, I will forgo the barracks and double the chariots and give it another run.

You are correct on the "thinking ahead" thing...and I'm trying, that is why I posted this thread. To receive insight and help that I wouldn't think of on my own.

Thank you to all that have responded so far!

When did you attack? You probably need to attack earlier.
I did the following:
Start on a barracks after the worker, let the worker improve the cows, and then the horses, and then road the horses, and the tile SE of the horses. Tech the wheel and then bronzeworking. After connecting the horses, there are only 3 idle turns, since Bronzeworking finishes in 4 turns, and the worker must climb a forested hill on the turn before that. The worker can start on a road to the south.

The barrack is mostly built when you don't have anything else to build. You don't need a warrior since the city won't go to size 5 before your chariots are ready.

Most of the barracks will get built when you can't build anything else, so it is better to build a barracks.

As soon as the city hits size 3, build another worker, this worker will come out just in time to chop. When the barracks is done build 8 chariots.
The first worker can chop and mine the riverside grassland hill, but don't mine anything else, just chop a few riverside grasslands and the hills.

In 4 turns, a worker can produce 20 hammers with chopping, or build a mine wich will only give 1 more hammer than a forest tile, so you need 20 turns to break even with mining.

You can have 8 chariots by turn 45, declare war at turn 50 and take Nidaros in turn 51 (1960 BC). You can also complete Stonehenge in the same turn.
(I researched Mysticism, masonry and then agriculture after bronze working)

If you take the second city, make sure to get the worker. If possible delay the capture 1 turn for the worker to flee to the city. You can keep all cities, certainly Nidaros. Nidaros should probably build another worker, and then a settler for a gem/floodplains city to the north of Nidaros.

 

[josh4bs]

Thank you for the detailed instructions!

The war is over at turn 52...stalled for one turn to try to locate the worker, no luck.

I kept the capitol, although there are no buildings in it, yet...and razed the 2nd, worthless city.

Built Stonehenge/working on Great Wall.

Need to determine what the next steps will be. My scout has searched the land and found no one else with me. That is what made me want the Great Wall, to keep the barbs at bay.

Here is a look at the map:
South

North

And a closer look at my capitol:

And Nidaros:

I need to determine:
-What direction to go in with both cities
-Where to expand to
-What to do with my Chariots, spawnbust?
-Archers in each city for defense?
-What tasks do my workers get?
-How many workers do I need?
-How many settlers/How fast?
-Tech direction?

Wow, that is a lot to determine...I will think about it and try to post some of my thoughts.

 

[barbertje]

Nidaros - worker settler building, than wonders.
Berling - wonders. If you get the pyramids, farm both for more specialists.
City to the north of nidaros: floodplain cottages/gems, excellent site for a capital.

I'd first settle between Nidaros and Berlin.

If you get the great wall, there's no need for spawnbusting or defending archers. Use a couple to scout out the land and to cover the roading operation. If you miss the great wall, keep 2 units in all threatened cities, (2 chariots or warrior/chariot)
and make sure than you can whip out more troops

Nidaros should build 2 workers, and then a settler for the gems/floodplains to the north, after that probably a city next to the gold.

Try to make sure you have 2 workers ready for a new city. (unless it's jungled, than even more)
Old cities can often do without them for a while. For example, build 2 workers than a setller in Nidaros, the workers should be able to build 2 mines and chop a forest before the settler is done, and can than both go to the new city, farm a flood plain together, improve the gems, cottage everything, including the floodplain farm last, and chop some trees for a granary and library.

Nidaros might grow another size, and then produce 1 or 2 workers for another city. (depends on wether you can spare one from the north), the worker can build one more mine while the settler is built. and then follow the settler.

You could risk building another worker and settler first in the capital, settle a city on the coast between the stone and the pigs, and connect the stone before continuing with the great wall, but you might lose it then. I'd settle a city there soon anyway.

It's attractive to try for the pyramids, so you can skip monarchy, altough it's a good map for cottaging as well, and you might not get full value from the pyramids.

I think you want priesthood for the oracle, than pottery-writing. (make sure not to complete the oracle before you get pottery. Sailing (can at least try the great lighthouse) Then maths for chopping, aesthetics-literature for the great library,

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I need to determine:
-What direction to go in with both cities
-Where to expand to
-What to do with my Chariots, spawnbust?
-Archers in each city for defense?
-What tasks do my workers get?
-How many workers do I need?
-How many settlers/How fast?
-Tech direction?

Wow, that is a lot to determine...I will think about it and try to post some of my thoughts.

My suggestion would be to start from a dotmap - ie, first answer the question "where do I want to put cities?" Once you know where you want them to be, you can then figure out what you want them to do. Then you can figure out what order you want to place them in.

I haven't looked at the game, just the pictures, but if you haven't met anyone by now, you are probably on your own for the next hundred turns, so you probably don't have to substitute fast plays for strong ones.

Archers only make sense if you are anticipating having your cities attacked. By whom? Barbarians you can control with either the wall or your chariots, and if there's no one else around.... Warriors or surplus chariots are perfectly suitable for keeping the civilians productive.

So figure out where the cities go first, and see if that answers your other questions.

 

[pigswill]

You can't fully dotmap until you've explored (including coast for seafood resources). A city or 2 or 3 between Berlin and Nidaros may be a starting point.

The question you haven't asked is:

How am I going to afford all this?

 

[The Oz-Man]

Good job on the rush!

You almost certainly want the stone hooked up ASAP since the Pyramids are a very obvious build with Industrious Bizzy now presumably in isolation. Remember that you're going to want to run the Representation civic with the 'Mids, so Writing is a high-priority tech.

Your tech path seems to suggest a run at the Oracle, which is another good idea. Code of Laws is the obvious choice here; you have a lot of land to settle, and you'll need to reign in costs as best you can. Plan to whip out Courthouses, and when you have the infrastructure you need, run the Caste System civic to exploit scientists.

If you don't want to go for military here as suggested in the beginning, a run at a culture victory is certainly doable; a player on Noble can easily get the Aesthetics wonders as well as Confucianism (through the Oracle) and Taoism (through bulbs) to beef up your culture cities. The Pyramids also support a run at culture since Representation is especially powerful (making Artist specialists meaningful in more ways than one).

But at this point, with a lot of good land you can probably settle for free, the game is pretty much won; how are you going to win it? That's your call. Lots of options.

P.S. I'd have razed Nidaros. Look at what a powerful site 1NE of the city is. Double-corn plus floodplains plus gems plus green land plus hills? I'll take that as a capital any day of the week.

 

[barbertje]

P.S. I'd have razed Nidaros. Look at what a powerful site 1NE of the city is. Double-corn plus floodplains plus gems plus green land plus hills? I'll take that as a capital any day of the week.

This seems a huge waste of time and production. Now you need to build another settler in Berlin, walk it over to the new site, settle a new size 1 city without the corn in the first ring, so you'll need to build a worker in Berlin too and waste turns walking to the new site, or use another 13 turns to build a worker in the new city, further delaying the growth there. All this will also delay the pyramids and the oracle in the capitol, and you have 2 cities when you could have 4.

 

[Mylene]

With your chariots, you could turn tgw into fail gold
Should be more helpful.

 

[vranasm]

With your chariots, you could turn tgw into fail gold
Should be more helpful.

with the vast area he got... my pure guess is that TGW is good.

The stone should be improved asap and connected though. Send there 2 workers if you have them

build Mids, TGL, not sure if you have enough time for Stonehenge, would be good too, since it looks like this could turn out as a good SSE map.

gems, gold, silver suggest that MC is good target for Oracle.

IW is maybe on shopping list too.

edit: I would most probably leave Berlin on wonders duty and Nidaros turns into workers/settlers pump for next 40 turns.

edit2:
crap you already built SH...great then one of the SSE aspects you have already...
don't forget ToA very strong wonder for SSE.

 

[josh4bs]

Thank you for all of the information/paths forward...I took yesterday off of Civ after I demolished Rags. Had a Mother in Law to get to the airport early this morning, so we were spending the adequate time together as a family on her last night in Bavaria.

Pigswill....I had thought about your point of not knowing the "complete" land as of yet, so dot-mapping would be premature...With that said, I will be sending the Chariots on a scouting mission to fully reveal what my continent has in store for me. Dot-map after. And I have no idea how I will afford this which is why I am on here .

TGW....After thinking on this for a bit, I will stop TGW. I have plenty of protection with the units I have currently so Barbs shouldn't be a problem. That way, I can turn the hammers I have spent on TGW into gold and start to work on something else....settler>worker>worker>Mids????

Mids & Stone....I think the first order of business would be to settle the stones/pigs to the west of Berlin....that would grant me stone and then Berlin can chop/build Mids Looks like I will be settling 1N of the pigs. This will start my expansion toward Nidaros...

Victory condition....With Bismarck and the land that I have at my disposal...it begs for a Cultural victory, which I have never done...so this will be a good learning experience.

To Do>
-Stop TGW...build settler>worker>settler>worker>worker in Berlin
-Nidaros...build worker>worker>settler
-Workers...1-road to Nidaros???
-Chariots...scout/and 1 to protect Nidaros
-Tech Tree...Poly>Priest>Pottery>Writing

I think that is the way forward......

 

[georgjorge]

Mids & Stone....I think the first order of business would be to settle the stones/pigs to the west of Berlin....that would grant me stone

You already DO have Stone available, just need to build a quarry on it and road it. It doesn't need to be in the BFC of a city, just inside your culture.

 

[josh4bs]

You already DO have Stone available, just need to build a quarry on it and road it. It doesn't need to be in the BFC of a city, just inside your culture.

THANK YOU!!!!

I had no idea that was how it worked...I'm a dufus...

I haven't started in on the implementing the strategy yet, for this very reason.

Again, thank you.

***Admitting to that...how many people just slapped their forehead and thought, "What a noob."***

 

[josh4bs]

Turn 65

Fog-busting complete. Below is the continent as I know it, with all resources displayed:

I went back and forth with TGW....I completed it, then started in on the Mids...ToA as my next wonder?

Once the Mids are complete, it will be settler>Oracle>worker>worker>settler for Berlin...I think.

Nidaros has produced 2 workers and is starting on a settler as well...

Techs:
Poly and Priest are done...Writing is in process and Pottery is next in line.

 

[Romegypt]

The great wall was a good move. looks to me like you finished it about 15 turns before the barb rush. One time I built it on the same turn a massive uprising of archers event happened to me. they couldn't do anything!
Your relatively safe from barbs, so now you don't even need two defenders in each city. Might be smart though. I one put about 5 in each city when I was next to Julius caesar on highlands. and he was my friend! Same religion at all.
I't actually might have been better for you to have rushed monotheism for Judaism because that gets you masonry anyways. that way you could build the great wall snag a religion, and get organized religion civic. Then you make tons of missionaries and send them down to Rag. When you are the same religion as an AI they rarely attack you. In fact, I have never been attacked by an AI of the same religion. Plus it gets you a nice profit once you get a great prophet for the religions special building.
But it looks like your rush worked out. keep it going josh!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Pigswill....I had thought about your point of not knowing the "complete" land as of yet, so dot-mapping would be premature...With that said, I will be sending the Chariots on a scouting mission to fully reveal what my continent has in store for me. Dot-map after. And I have no idea how I will afford this which is why I am on here .

Something to think about for the future: what were you doing with all of the chariot turns you had before the war? There's no particular reason that your army has to all take the same route to the front lines, or that they all need to go there immediately then wait.

 

[josh4bs]

Something to think about for the future: what were you doing with all of the chariot turns you had before the war? There's no particular reason that your army has to all take the same route to the front lines, or that they all need to go there immediately then wait.

Very good point. They were all sitting in my capitol until the trek to Rag began. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Another time-waster eliminated.

 

[josh4bs]

Played to 500BC...Save is attached.

I will have to add more of a write-up later tonight.