Jotnar Balance and Discussion

[readercolin]

Few things about only upgrading available by forts. It would make a very interesting idea, except that as already posted, it takes FOREVER to level a fort commander up without combat - and even with combat, the barbs aren't all that great at leveling them up. I decided to try this and build a set of forts around my borders to later upgrade into cities... 200 turns later I still don't have one at level 6 (I have 1 at level 5, but I am assuming that turn into city is a promotion that they can take at level 6 as there is no way to change it into a city atm. The other option would be to make it available at level 4 (so the upgrade at 17xp would allow them to upgrade to a city), as it takes only around 50 turns or so of passive xp to level up to that.

Also, as for blocking mines and such. The only race that I see actually mining themselves would be the dwarves. Everyone else probably uses slaves in their mines, as mines generally have high casualty rates, and are unsafe work environments (recent technology has changed that to an extent, but mines before the steam engine were essentially deathtraps - and even after that they were very unsafe up till about the early/mid 1900's). For my own sake, I imagine the jotnar cities as a collection of giants, each overseeing a horde of smaller beings. They may be orcs, goblins, humans, whatever. But when the city grows in size there is another family who is in charge of that plot of land. The land itself isn't actually worked by the giants. Instead the land is that giant families fief, and they make sure that it produces. Each "City" is then a clan of giants - essentially the whole empire is a looseish collection of city states and the jotnar citizens are younglings looking for glory and whatnot outside of the clan, and therefore rise up to serve the empire.

-Colin

 

[odalrick]

I have 1 at level 5, but I am assuming that turn into city is a promotion that they can take at level 6 as there is no way to change it into a city atm. The other option would be to make it available at level 4 (so the upgrade at 17xp would allow them to upgrade to a city), as it takes only around 50 turns or so of passive xp to level up to that.

It's a spell costing 100 gold available at level 5. It doesn't show up unless you can cast it.

 

[Breez]

I will confirm it is working I converted 2 last night to cities.

I will also say both were ones placed by the map script not forts I built, which while cool, gave me a couple cities surrounded by mountains. With their limited city radius, losing 2-3 spaces to mountains hurts. However I did NOT have to convert those, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Limiting build projects could work. I'd say exclude the 'fancy' ones... No cottages/Wineries/Plantations/Mines. Let them build Farms, Quarries, Pastures. Basic things. Actually, with your improvement changes we may want to block mines completely, and limit Jotnar to Quarries, since those are open air. Unless they're using slaves, mines would be rather difficult for them.

Nah, they could still do open pit mines. Heck, with Eartkin they can hide underground...blocking mines would hardly seem fair.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Also, as for blocking mines and such. The only race that I see actually mining themselves would be the dwarves. Everyone else probably uses slaves in their mines, as mines generally have high casualty rates, and are unsafe work environments (recent technology has changed that to an extent, but mines before the steam engine were essentially deathtraps - and even after that they were very unsafe up till about the early/mid 1900's). For my own sake, I imagine the jotnar cities as a collection of giants, each overseeing a horde of smaller beings. They may be orcs, goblins, humans, whatever. But when the city grows in size there is another family who is in charge of that plot of land. The land itself isn't actually worked by the giants. Instead the land is that giant families fief, and they make sure that it produces. Each "City" is then a clan of giants - essentially the whole empire is a looseish collection of city states and the jotnar citizens are younglings looking for glory and whatnot outside of the clan, and therefore rise up to serve the empire.

-Colin

That is EXACTLY the way I see it.

 

[odalrick]

The jotnar water units, reaver and sea troll, get extra movement in water. While I understand why they get it, unfortunately it plays havoc with the pathfinding, which is awful at the best of times.

The Reaver is easy fix. Just make a spell to board and disbark from their longship, with the longship form not being able to go on land.

If you feel very adventurous make the Board Longship spell/ability require the Beached Longship unit in the tile. Also give Reavers a Build Longship spell/ability that requires a forest in the tile and creates a Beached Longship unit, possibly consuming the forest and taking time to cast.

The sea trolls could probably just lose the movement bonus. Give them 2 or 3 movement and water roads give them enough mobility.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

The jotnar water units, reaver and sea troll, get extra movement in water. While I understand why they get it, unfortunately it plays havoc with the pathfinding, which is awful at the best of times.

The Reaver is easy fix. Just make a spell to board and disbark from their longship, with the longship form not being able to go on land.

If you feel very adventurous make the Board Longship spell/ability require the Beached Longship unit in the tile. Also give Reavers a Build Longship spell/ability that requires a forest in the tile and creates a Beached Longship unit, possibly consuming the forest and taking time to cast.

The sea trolls could probably just lose the movement bonus. Give them 2 or 3 movement and water roads give them enough mobility.

I agree with the pathfinding...but making a change so that something is slightly less awful isn't really my cuppa. I'll see what I can do though, I agree it is annoying.

 

[readercolin]

how about half movement on water (much like the dwarves get half movement on hills or the elves half movement through forests). Means that watery roads are useless until you get engineering, but as that was more a style thing than anything else it shouldn't make a big difference. Also it should mean that they have an easier time moving through kelp, which would be understandable (FFP did implement kelp, right? well, even if it didn't, I believe it was planned for the future).

You could make it a giantkin promotion - it might look a bit funny for a hill giant to have half movement cost on water, but it would make no difference as it can't actually enter water, it would only affect reavers and trolls. Lastly, the system already works fairly well with this, as long as all units in the group have the same movement rate. It will tell me that the dwarf will move faster going over the hill, or the elf faster through the trees. When grouped with multiple people with different movement rates it breaks down a little bit (2 warriors + settler it tells me I can only move 1 over a hill instead of two). Would be a decent place to start from though.

-Colin

 

[Valkrionn]

I haven't implemented kelp... Yet...

 

[odalrick]

how about half movement on water (much like the dwarves get half movement on hills or the elves half movement through forests).

Actually, double movement in forest is another of those misleading documentations. It's all kinds of screwy. Near as I can tell, all it does is guarantee that you'll never use more than half your movement to enter that feature. So it'd be quite useless for water units with movement > 1 .

 

[Randomness]

nope, 1 move wariors can move 2 through forest (with elven) or hills (with dwarven). It is kinda weird how 1 movement units get more out of double movement modifieries, than muti move units...

 

[Darksaber1]

Yes, but I don't think that 2 move units are actually effected.

 

[Brokenbone]

Discussion / Idea - if there's Lairs on the map, some are Giant Steddings.

Do you think the Jots having some special option available other than "Explore Lair", or alternately, something like a guaranteed good result or a unique good result might be available? Part of the theme of Jotnar seems to be pulling together scattered families of a race in decline (it used to be that a high AC meant a few different effects on gameplay, though in FF+ that's changed), at least they'll all get to experience the Apocalypse together. I guess all I'm saying is if you find what are essentially some "unowned" Giant Steddings out there in the field, maybe there's more of a homecoming vibe available than "Orcs burst forth" or whatever. Even something as basic as finding a Jot Citizen there, or being able to "Claim Fort" thereby spawning a commander (or eventually Hurler if you hit 5th and want to spend the gold on a settlement). Just a thought or two is all.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Discussion / Idea - if there's Lairs on the map, some are Giant Steddings.

Do you think the Jots having some special option available other than "Explore Lair", or alternately, something like a guaranteed good result or a unique good result might be available? Part of the theme of Jotnar seems to be pulling together scattered families of a race in decline (it used to be that a high AC meant a few different effects on gameplay, though in FF+ that's changed), at least they'll all get to experience the Apocalypse together. I guess all I'm saying is if you find what are essentially some "unowned" Giant Steddings out there in the field, maybe there's more of a homecoming vibe available than "Orcs burst forth" or whatever. Even something as basic as finding a Jot Citizen there, or being able to "Claim Fort" thereby spawning a commander (or eventually Hurler if you hit 5th and want to spend the gold on a settlement). Just a thought or two is all.

I absolutely agree. I meant to do this, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

[Randomness]

double post

 

[Randomness]

So it'd be quite useless for water units with movement > 1 .

Ah, I miss read (saw a < 1 instead of a > 1). You're right, prehaps a promo with water prereq with +1 movement would work...

 

[Valkrionn]

Discussion / Idea - if there's Lairs on the map, some are Giant Steddings.

Do you think the Jots having some special option available other than "Explore Lair", or alternately, something like a guaranteed good result or a unique good result might be available? Part of the theme of Jotnar seems to be pulling together scattered families of a race in decline (it used to be that a high AC meant a few different effects on gameplay, though in FF+ that's changed), at least they'll all get to experience the Apocalypse together. I guess all I'm saying is if you find what are essentially some "unowned" Giant Steddings out there in the field, maybe there's more of a homecoming vibe available than "Orcs burst forth" or whatever. Even something as basic as finding a Jot Citizen there, or being able to "Claim Fort" thereby spawning a commander (or eventually Hurler if you hit 5th and want to spend the gold on a settlement). Just a thought or two is all.

Hmm... Maybe allow them to convert the Staedding to a fort?

......And I see you actually said that, if I would just read through the whole thing.

I like that. If they can claim it, then 5 levels later they can make it a city, thereby allowing the former barbarians access to their civilized life.

Ah, I miss read (saw a < 1 instead of a > 1). You're right, prehaps a promo with water prereq with +1 movement would work...

That's actually what they have now, the complaint was that it messes with pathfinding.

 

[Randomness]

... well, I fell a little slow right now...

 

[readercolin]

Another thought. How about doubling their movement, but making all land terrain cost double movement for them? So if they walk on water or on roads, they get the full speed. On the other hand, exploring new terrain or terrain you haven't roaded yet, they only get half movement.

Not sure if you'd be able to get it to work, but might be worth a try...

-Colin

 

[Furien]

Out of curiosity, is there anywhere I could find the Jotnar-specific happenings? Whether it be random events or AC-linked popups.

I usually can't play far in my Jotnar games since I just start slowing down around game 160 and get memory allocation failures fairly often for some reason. Only yesterday was I able to find that interesting AC-linked (I'm fairly sure) event with the Jotnar leaving to find their children. It was really interesting!