Jotnar: Balance Discussion Thread

Valkrionn said:
There are no units in those entire trees TO block. IIRC they were blocked in order to prevent the AI from researching completely useless techs... Only issue is that it prevents the research of Machinery.
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To be honest, I think bowyers is a bit of a stupid requirement for machinery.

It should be available with Engineering and Smelting.
 
WarKirby said:
well that's pretty bad. Perhaps he didn;t know how to block off just those units.

In any case, it definitely needs fixing.
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I do know how to block off units. :)

Part of Jotnar was to simplify some things, and that included removing some tech-tree from use. And yes, to remove useless trees.

Stop trying to mainstream Jotnar, balance do not require that they have to do everything the way everyone else does it. They do not need archers or poisons, or even machinery.
 
Arctic Circle said:
I do know how to block off units. :)

Part of Jotnar was to simplify some things, and that included removing some tech-tree from use. And yes, to remove useless trees.

Stop trying to mainstream Jotnar, balance do not require that they have to do everything the way everyone else does it. They do not need archers or poisons, or even machinery.
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Machinery blocks them off from the industry civic. Which is pretty odd considering their economy is founded on windmills and watermills.
 
WarKirby said:
What?

Who ever said they can't research the archery line?
I've never heard of any civ being blocked from researching techs, aside from the civ specific ones.

As far as I'm aware, Jotnar don't gain anything from archery, but there's no reason they can;t research it. Is this wrong?
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Yes, CURRENTLY they can not research arcery at all. The tech is blocked (red on the tech tree) you can NOT select it. I could not even help my teammates when they researched it.
 
After having played a game with the Jotnar, I do think they could use a little toning down. The nearly free maintenance for cities combined with market + elder council spam leads to a rather thriving economy. Despite the size limit, I was still able to build several wonders because I had such a tech lead on the competition. And because the Jotnar do not have to build units, I was able to focus entirely on economic development. In fact, I had so many citizens at one point I ended up declaring war just to be rid of a few of them, since it was costing me unit upkeep.

I'll admit, I'm not the best civ4 player. I was doing this on prince difficiculty and normally I have to struggle a bit, but in this game I was on top without any problems, founded 3 religions (possible more), and had plenty of potential for military to invade my neighbors.
 
WarKirby said:
Machinery blocks them off from the industry civic. Which is pretty odd considering their economy is founded on windmills and watermills.
Click to expand...

Removing bowyers as a requirement for machinery is a pretty easy fix to that. About 30 seconds of XML work. Would save the Doviello from researching the archery line to get their hero...which always seemed silly to me anyway.
 
Vermicious Knid said:
Removing bowyers as a requirement for machinery is a pretty easy fix to that. About 30 seconds of XML work. Would save the Doviello from researching the archery line to get their hero...which always seemed silly to me anyway.
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hell yes, that too.

Do smelting and Engineering seem like too much as prereqs?
 
Mylon said:
After having played a game with the Jotnar, I do think they could use a little toning down. The nearly free maintenance for cities combined with market + elder council spam leads to a rather thriving economy. Despite the size limit, I was still able to build several wonders because I had such a tech lead on the competition. And because the Jotnar do not have to build units, I was able to focus entirely on economic development. In fact, I had so many citizens at one point I ended up declaring war just to be rid of a few of them, since it was costing me unit upkeep.

I'll admit, I'm not the best civ4 player. I was doing this on prince difficiculty and normally I have to struggle a bit, but in this game I was on top without any problems, founded 3 religions (possible more), and had plenty of potential for military to invade my neighbors.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity what Patch weer you playing? M\N did tone them down some. Lowered Water and Wind Mills and should have lowered their spawn rate as well as increasing some of their upgrade costs. As well as removed HN promotions

Maybe they still need further tuning, I just think it is important to make sure we are comparing apples to apples
 
Breez said:
Just out of curiosity what Patch weer you playing? M\N did tone them down some. Lowered Water and Wind Mills and should have lowered their spawn rate as well as increasing some of their upgrade costs. As well as removed HN promotions

Maybe they still need further tuning, I just think it is important to make sure we are comparing apples to apples
Click to expand...


The difficulty level and options are also important.


I'm playing a patch L game with orc swarms on diety...and as of turn 200 there is no steamrolling going on. I didn't get the 3 stooges, didn't get guild of the 9, founded Kilmorph only through a timely great prophet...I'm having a difficult time of it. Could still use tweaking around the edges, but fundamentally a strong civ. Not as good as the elves(either flavor), that's for sure.
 
Hi,

i hope this question hasn't been asked before, shame on me if it was, but has anyone ever tested the Jotnar in a Marathon Game?
A friend and i usually play Civ and all the mods at Marathon Speed, just to be able to keep building and unit production on a line with research.

I tried the Jotnar with a devastating result of 1 Jotnar child being born in 144 turn.
Same in a single player game at marathon speed.
Just out of interest i tried them in a game with normal speed and got 5 child bevor turn 25.

Is this really intended? I can't imagine how you can possibly survive a Game with a rate of around 1 child being born avery 150 turns......

BestRegards
 
Breez said:
Just out of curiosity what Patch weer you playing? M\N did tone them down some. Lowered Water and Wind Mills and should have lowered their spawn rate as well as increasing some of their upgrade costs. As well as removed HN promotions

Maybe they still need further tuning, I just think it is important to make sure we are comparing apples to apples
Click to expand...

I think it was patch M or N. Lumbermills seem to be the best choice for improvements, though workshops filled the non-forested gaps. The farmer guild allows cities to reach their max size with minimal food input. The major source of power seemed to come from nearly no maintenance cost from cities and the +3 gold +1 research from market + elder council. And on normal speed I was getting lots of giants. I had trouble paying the costs to upgrade them all. But every time I built a city I had plenty of them to give that new city workshops, lumbermills, mines, and whatever else I needed.

The size 8 cap seems like a downside, but instead it's an advantage.
 
Just found a biiig problem. Jotnar thralls suck so bad that even if you attack a goblin archer with 40, I say again 40, you cant pull the archer down. That needs to be fixed or im just going to delete every goblin archer i find from worldbuilder.
 
Haerzog said:
Just found a biiig problem. Jotnar thralls suck so bad that even if you attack a goblin archer with 40, I say again 40, you cant pull the archer down. That needs to be fixed or im just going to delete every goblin archer i find from worldbuilder.
Click to expand...

they're sposed to eb passsive city defense man, cannon fodder at absolute best. Bring ur two thralls to ur city, hug the wall, build egrass. hes strong enough to block improvements from invaders and has a nice work rate of 200.
 
LOL. Thralls are great at what they do.

1. Serve as a hammer piggybank when you don't have a useful building to queue up.
2. Kill orc warriors that butt their heads into your city wall.

If you are doing anything else with them expect poor results.
 
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