Jotnar: Balance Discussion Thread

Yet another thought. The Jotnar could really use a melee upgrade unit for citizens prior to Hill Giants. Doesn't have to be a strong offensive unit...just a strong city defender to help fend off early orc swarms.

I've been trying out a 4/5 unitcombat melee unit (using hill giant art), upgradeable to hill giant. I don't get enough of them to steamroll my neighbors...on Diety they are bringing me to the point where my cities just barely (mostly)survive the waves and waves of orc warriors.
 
Still think the whole defensive problem could be solved by incorporating thrall archers, as it is the thralls are just spam.
 
thrall archers would be interesting.

2/3 strength, 40% city defence bonus, 1 ranged attack strength with 15% damage limit.

And of course, still no maintenance.
 
The problem with thrall archers is you'd have to open archery for research for the Jotnar...and it would still be a really suboptimal choice.


A weakish Giantkin melee unit, on the other hand, gives you something to do with your citizens from turn one. Other than building unreliable trolls and settlers/workers, that is. An actual Jotnar makes more thematic sense as a home defense unit than a recon troll unit anyway...trolls should (in my opinion) be an exploration and raiding unit, not hanging around guarding some very nervous townsfolk.
 
You can use your citizens for hanging around and guarding your townsfolk.

do remember that both citizens and workers have 4 defensive strength.

Trolls are they attack, citizens and workers are the defence. As well as the empire building.

I like it this way personally, and I don't think there's a niche there which needs filling. Thrall archers would be a nice novelty, is all.
 
WarKirby said:
You can use your citizens for hanging around and guarding your townsfolk.

do remember that both citizens and workers have 4 defensive strength.

Trolls are they attack, citizens and workers are the defence. As well as the empire building.

I like it this way personally, and I don't think there's a niche there which needs filling. Thrall archers would be a nice novelty, is all.
Click to expand...

True...you can use citizens as mediocre defenders.

I like having an early melee unit...but I understand tastes vary. :)

If we are going for novelty value, why not the Giantkin rock hurler discussed earlier?
 
WarKirby said:
thrall archers would be interesting.

2/3 strength, 40% city defence bonus, 1 ranged attack strength with 15% damage limit.

And of course, still no maintenance.
Click to expand...

Do archers get 40% city defense bonus typically? If so then sure, if not... then I think Simply allowing Thrall archers to learn City Defense and of course get Wall Defender promo would be sufficient.

I am not sure if I agree about no maintenance. They would after all need arrows.

Vermicious Knid said:
The problem with thrall archers is you'd have to open archery for research for the Jotnar...and it would still be a really suboptimal choice.
Click to expand...

If it is suboptimal then wouldn't it simply be prudent for the Giant player to not research it. I hate making that desision for the players taking it out of thier hand. Add to that, I play MP, my ally's research Archery. I can not help, nor do I gain ANY thing from it. I would love to have Thrall Archers. Heck I would eventually get them JUST for the Ranged attack to carry one around in my SoD.

Vermicious Knid said:
If we are going for novelty value, why not the Giantkin rock hurler discussed earlier?
Click to expand...

Longbowman UU :) Make a UU for the Bowyer building allowing them. Stone Quarry maybe?
 
Breez said:
Longbowman UU :) Make a UU for the Bowyer building allowing them. Stone Quarry maybe?
Click to expand...

Hurling rocks isn't exactly an art. I'd venture to say that requiring bowyers to do it is a bit much.

Perhaps warfare would be an appropriate tech. A UB "Jotnar Armoury" perhaps replacing training yard, since you really don't need to train thralls. It would allow ranged attacks for any giants standing in the city.
 
WarKirby said:
Hurling rocks isn't exactly an art. I'd venture to say that requiring bowyers to do it is a bit much.

Perhaps warfare would be an appropriate tech. A UB "Jotnar Armoury" perhaps replacing training yard, since you really don't need to train thralls. It would allow ranged attacks for any giants standing in the city.
Click to expand...

OOps...

I MEANT "Longbowman UU Make a UB for the Bowyer building allowing them. Stone Quarry maybe?"

I keep thinking of UU as Unique Upgrade not Unique Unit.
 
You know...after trying it both ways I agree with Warkirby. Workers with Hardy are a better strategy than upgrading to a weak melee unit.


I still want my thrown boulders though. :)


Would it be possible to make that happen just using XML? Seems like creating a promotion that gives ranged attack and a building that provides it to eligible units should be doable....
 
Here... Insert this code into the PromotionInfos.xml file. Change the name to what you want, the amount of damage, button, etc... I included Min/Max age fields, so you can set how old or young a giant should be able to gain the promotion. Included all unitcombats that I believe the Jotnar have access to... Left off Naval because they shouldn't really be city defense. Make sure to fix the indentation to that of all the other entries if you use this. :goodjob:



Code: 
<PromotionInfo>	
	<Type>PROMOTION_GIANTARCHER</Type>
	<Description>Promotion Name Here</Description>
	<PromotionPrereq>PROMOTION_GIANTKIN</PromotionPrereq>
	<bAutoAcquire>1</bAutoAcquire>
	<bMustMaintain>1</bMustMaintain>
	<bNoXP>1</bNoXP>
	<iAirCombat>3</iAirCombat>            <!-- Ranged Attack Strength -->
	<iAirCombatLimitBoost>15</iAirCombatLimitBoost>          <!-- Ranged Damage Limit -->
	<PrereqBuildingORs>
		<PrereqBuilding>BUILDING_WALLS</PrereqBuilding>
		<PrereqBuilding>BUILDING_PALISADE</PrereqBuilding>
		<PrereqBuilding>Your Building Here</PrereqBuilding>
	</PrereqBuildingORs>
	<PrereqCivilizations>
		<PrereqCivilization>CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR</PrereqCivilization>
	</PrereqCivilizations>
	<PrereqInCity>0</PrereqInCity>
	<PrereqMaxAge>0</PrereqMaxAge>
	<PrereqMinAge>0</PrereqMinAge>
	<iAirRangeChange>1</iAirRangeChange>       <!-- Attack Range -->
	<UnitCombats>
		<UnitCombat>
			<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
			<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
		</UnitCombat>
		<UnitCombat>
			<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE</UnitCombatType>
			<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
		</UnitCombat>
		<UnitCombat>
			<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
			<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
		</UnitCombat>
		<UnitCombat>
			<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
			<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
		</UnitCombat>
	</UnitCombats>
	<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/BigPinkBox.dds</Button>	</PromotionInfo>
 
I think the damage limit should be 30-40, and the strength 4, but otherwise it looks good. yaay

Let's hope it gets incorporated in next patch.
 
Personally, I'd go with about the same stats you mentioned, but limit it to giants over age 100. The younguns are too hotheaded, they'd just run straight in rather than throwing a few rocks to rough em up first. :lol:

Really though, an age limit would be both thematic, and prevent their cities from becoming impossible to take.
 
Valkrionn said:
Personally, I'd go with about the same stats you mentioned, but limit it to giants over age 100. The younguns are too hotheaded, they'd just run straight in rather than throwing a few rocks to rough em up first. :lol:

Really though, an age limit would be both thematic, and prevent their cities from becoming impossible to take.
Click to expand...

Age 100 is a bit much.
Personally, hotheadded or not, chucking things s fun. I think the younger giants would do that.

Besides, cities wouldnn't be imposible to take. Giants have no defensive bonuses, and ranged attacks can only hit onme peerson at a time. Harder to take, sure, but far from impossible.
 
There's actually a bit of a problem with the Jotnar NOT having access to the Archery line. It closes off the ability to build Master Fletchers (economy + great engineer points), Master's Hall (more great engineer points), and a free Great Engineer from Machinery, as well as preventing them from getting the Industry civic (which may well be intended with their present wind/water mill bonuses).
 
Zurai said:
There's actually a bit of a problem with the Jotnar NOT having access to the Archery line. It closes off the ability to build Master Fletchers (economy + great engineer points), Master's Hall (more great engineer points), and a free Great Engineer from Machinery, as well as preventing them from getting the Industry civic (which may well be intended with their present wind/water mill bonuses).
Click to expand...

What?

Who ever said they can't research the archery line?
I've never heard of any civ being blocked from researching techs, aside from the civ specific ones.

As far as I'm aware, Jotnar don't gain anything from archery, but there's no reason they can;t research it. Is this wrong?
 
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