Jotnar: Balance Discussion Thread

I think the citizens just need an upgrade to workers.

Workers are necessary, because of the early phases where you can sometimes go a hundred turns before your first citizen. The ability to manually build workers is critical there.
 
WarKirby said:
I think the citizens just need an upgrade to workers.

Workers are necessary, because of the early phases where you can sometimes go a hundred turns before your first citizen. The ability to manually build workers is critical there.
Click to expand...

You mean leave citizens the ability to work, jsut let you pay to make one an actual worker?

I think that would be great if it removed from them the ability to promote further up any of the combat lines AND opened up worker promotions so they could work faster and get hardy.
 
Code: 
			iMaxGiants = 3 + (3 * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'))) - (CyGame().getGlobalCounter() / 5)
			
			iGiantSpawnChance = iMaxGiants - iCurrentNumberOfGiants
			
			if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Giants born") < iGiantSpawnChance:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_JOT_ADULT')
				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_NORTH)
				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_GIANT_BORN",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,gc.getUnitInfo(newUnit.getUnitType()).getButton(),ColorTypes(8),pCity.getX(),pCity.getY(),True,True)
				if pCity.getNumBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS')) > 0:
					newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_SPIRIT_GUIDE'), True)

Basically the new maximum number of giants is equal to 3 times the number of cities that you have, plus 3 (or "capital counts double"). This is reduced by 1 for every 5 full points on the Armageddon counter. The chance of getting a new giant is equal to the maximum less the current number of giants, as a percentage.

At game start - you have 1 city and the AC is 0, so your base chance is:
Max: 3 + (3 x 1) - 0 = 6
Chance = Max - Current = 6 - 0 = 6%​

After a while, you may have 3 cities and the AC has risen to 12. You have a total of 7 giants at this point:
Max: 3 + (3 x 3) - 2 = 10
Chance = Max - Current = 10 - 7 = 3%​

An unusual game, the AC stays very low (15) despite the fact it is now late game and you have 17 cities and 50 giants:
Max: 3 + (3 x 17) - 3 = 51
Chance = Max - Current = 51 - 50 = 1%​

Someone is going for a "Gone to Hell" victory, so the AC has risen to 78 - currently have only 15 giants across 10 cities:
Max: 3 + (3 x 10 ) - 15 = 18
Chance = Max - Current = 18 - 15 = 3%​

=====

Note that this is per city per turn. Your oldest cities will be checked first, so they always have the highest chance of spawning. Any spawns in early cities will reduce the chance of a spawn in newer cities accordingly.

=====

Goal is to boost early spawning a little, whilst throttling late game runaway.
 
WarKirby said:
I think the citizens just need an upgrade to workers.

Workers are necessary, because of the early phases where you can sometimes go a hundred turns before your first citizen. The ability to manually build workers is critical there.
Click to expand...

I've actually made Worker a possible upgrade for Jotnar Citizens. Just testing now to see if they're smart enough to handle it.

EDIT: Which I realize is pointless whilst they're not AIPlayable, but I do plan to remove that restriction eventually...
 
So if I wanted to remove the link to the AC, I would remove:

- (CyGame().getGlobalCounter() / 5)


Correct?


Is that in a python file?
 
I like it, it isn't TOO large of a swing and keeps the flavor.

Vehem said:
=====

Note that this is per city per turn. Your oldest cities will be checked first, so they always have the highest chance of spawning. Any spawns in early cities will reduce the chance of a spawn in newer cities accordingly.
Click to expand...

That is a good way of doing it. You can still get multipule spawns per turn but they should tend to be in the older areas and happen less often.
 
Vermicious Knid said:
So if I wanted to remove the link to the AC, I would remove:

- (CyGame().getGlobalCounter() / 5)


Correct?


Is that in a python file?
Click to expand...

Aye - that's the only thing tying it to the AC.

It'll be in CvEventManager.py under onCityTurn.
 
Vehem said:
Goal is to boost early spawning a little, whilst throttling late game runaway.
Click to expand...

Nice. If it needs to be increased late-game I suggest adding a modifier for average city size. (Something like total population/# of cities, so 8 size-8 cities would give better odds than 8 size-1 cities.)
 
fothal said:
I started a new game at "Normal" speed, but all other options identical. I think you are correct that the AI doesn't do so well at slower speeds.

I started at an excellent location for both my starting city and expansion. I haven't had any serious clashes with other civilizations yet, but so far even just countering barbarians is much more difficult. I'm also seeing indications I'm doing far worse than I expect in the technology race.

I'll play a few games at "Normal" speed and see what I think.
Click to expand...

Just an update on this.

I'm still on the same game at "Normal" speed, but now well into the game. The game speed drastically altered the difficulty. At "Epic" it felt like I was playing at "Monarch" difficulty. At "Normal" it feels like "Deity" (as it should as that is the difficult I'm at).

The difference is almost entirely in how fast I obtain Jotnar Citizens compared to how fast other civilizations are advancing. At "Epic" they were not a scarce resource at all. I had so many sitting around it was absurd. At "Normal" the number of Citizens seems more or less balanced to the difficulty.
 
fothal said:
Just an update on this.

I'm still on the same game at "Normal" speed, but now well into the game. The game speed drastically altered the difficulty. At "Epic" it felt like I was playing at "Monarch" difficulty. At "Normal" it feels like "Deity" (as it should as that is the difficult I'm at).

The difference is almost entirely in how fast I obtain Jotnar Citizens compared to how fast other civilizations are advancing. At "Epic" they were not a scarce resource at all. I had so many sitting around it was absurd. At "Normal" the number of Citizens seems more or less balanced to the difficulty.
Click to expand...


So...it isn't scaling with game speed?


Seems like that could be a bit of a problem.
 
I am always running out of citizens in my game. Because im always at war with the Doviello (warmongers) and they keep killing em off when I keep having to upgrade them to wild trolls. Stupid Sons of Asena...(grumble).
 
I've done some more playing with the Jotnar - ended up adjusting the costs a little. Higher-end units in general are a little cheaper, the lower end (notably Trolls and Workers, who had costs less than a Citizen [5 gold appears to be the minimum for upgrades]) have gotten a little more expensive. You'll be looking at 45 Gold for Wild Trolls/Workers and 165 for Hill Giants, which seemed to be quite affordable (with a little commerce-management when I wanted to upgrade a unit).

I've also switched the Jotnar Palace to produce no culture, but instead it produces +2:gold:. This does seem to help with the first couple of upgrades while keeping research on 100%.

=====

Workers are now possible upgrades from a citizen, and can get worker promotions. It's an option for a citizen who wants to speed up his work rate significantly (doubles it, plus the promotions are available to further increase it). You won't want to dedicate too many citizens to being workers, but they do double as decent city defenders if you take the Hardy Promotions.

====

I also dropped the Hidden Nationality from Trolls/Hill Giants. They don't need it and it doesn't truly fit the background lore for them (they're kinda proud - only Uxol actually has any real link to the barbarian giants etc).
 
I'm not sure removing HN from trolls and hill giants is a good idea. I'd argue that it does fit the lore.

Trolls have the estranged promo, giving them a chance to turn barbarian. Their pedia entry mentions that many jotnar settlements are attacked by trolls. They're also quite biologically different from giants, and I don't think it's logical for the average erebusian to know that any wandering troll is a servant of the jotnar

Hill giants, similarly, have HN because there already are barbarian hill giants in the world. They serve the jotnar, butthey walk among their wild kin, and are indistinguishable from them to most people.
 
No culture from the palace is just begging to find out what happens when Loki culture-flips your only city...
 
Vehem said:
I've done some more playing with the Jotnar - ended up adjusting the costs a little. Higher-end units in general are a little cheaper, the lower end (notably Trolls and Workers, who had costs less than a Citizen [5 gold appears to be the minimum for upgrades]) have gotten a little more expensive. You'll be looking at 45 Gold for Wild Trolls/Workers and 165 for Hill Giants, which seemed to be quite affordable (with a little commerce-management when I wanted to upgrade a unit).
Click to expand...

Sounds good.. Should be a bit less rewarding to spam the Wild Trolls now. :goodjob:

Vehem said:
I've also switched the Jotnar Palace to produce no culture, but instead it produces +2:gold:. This does seem to help with the first couple of upgrades while keeping research on 100%.
Click to expand...

Not sure about this. Like Xienwolf said, Loki could hurt... Plus, I tend to settle my first cities inside my culture, so they'd already be safe from animals. Maybe 1:culture:?

Vehem said:
Workers are now possible upgrades from a citizen, and can get worker promotions. It's an option for a citizen who wants to speed up his work rate significantly (doubles it, plus the promotions are available to further increase it). You won't want to dedicate too many citizens to being workers, but they do double as decent city defenders if you take the Hardy Promotions.
Click to expand...

Very nice. :goodjob:

Vehem said:
I also dropped the Hidden Nationality from Trolls/Hill Giants. They don't need it and it doesn't truly fit the background lore for them (they're kinda proud - only Uxol actually has any real link to the barbarian giants etc).
Click to expand...

Didn't like this at first, but I think I could get used to it.
 
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