Journal of a random game.

[killercane]

Something I forgot to mention is using your free tech for Mapmaking might not be the best of choices for this setup. The republic slingshot would do you more good here. MM will often be researched quickly by the AI and can be traded for.

 

[TruePurple]

Only if I can trade for code of law first which seems unlikely. If I researched code of law before philosophy I'd risk losing being first to philosophy.

 

[tR1cKy]

...
Full bore or none at all? What are you talking about? You need at least 10% research in order get the guaranteed tech in 50 turns thing. You should never completely turn off tech.
...

He's talking about "100% science" and "0% science with a specialist". Spending 10% in science is usually a bad idea. Most of the times you will research in the max turn limit anyway. Better use 0% with a specialist, and save money.

I could be wrong but... it seems you're dismissing the suggestions you're given too easily. Everything depends on the situation, and research is a valid example. Sometimes it's cheaper to research yourself. Sometimes it's more convenient to go with the zero research gambit and collect money for trading techs later. It's up to you to judge the situation. The statement "with all that money i can buy a couple of techs" sometimes it's true, sometimes it isn't.

Contacts, early or late, are important for your progress. Selling communications earn money. Selling maps earn money. Selling a monopoly tech earns a damn lot of money. More civs known means more opportunities to trade techs. An experienced player who manage to gain contacts with distant civilizations can earn a lot with trade rounds and reach tech parity with little or no research.

Roads are more important than mines, in the early game. You'd better road first, mine or irrigate second. No roads -> no gold production -> no money and no research -> you are toast.

 

[TruePurple]

Ah, is that what he was saying? Only latter game. In early game 10% science only represents between a few points if that (1 or 2 starting out). But taking a worker off to make a scientist means the loss of building, food and money. The whole point is to research in max turn with minimal waste, turning a pop specialist when you have so precious few in the first place is really wasteful.

Everything depends on the situation

Its so fun when people matter of factly state the obvious.

The situation is what we have been discussing. At first city your getting so little science coming in that even 80-90% science wont get you writing any sooner then 48 turns. Many turns latter you can do better but I doubt better then say 35 turns all told. Seems better to go for max turn in this situation and thats what I've observed in game as well.

The only exception might be if I wanted to be able to get code of law as well before I got philosophy so that I can get republic as a free tech. Then every turn might count if I still want to be first to philosophy.

Though cash helps allot with tech trading. Like sometimes if a trade is uneven just a bit of cash can mean getting another tech in the deal.

Roads are more important than mines, in the early game. You'd better road first, mine or irrigate second. No roads -> no gold production -> no money and no research -> you are toast.

I totally disagree. Especially when going for a max turn tech. Every shield means getting those ships, warriors and granaries out faster. The difference of 6 gold (time it takes to build a mine first) isn't going to make a difference. But the presence of a mine on a grass tile can nearly double your output with one city pop.

 

[TruePurple]

I tried the suggestion of getting out a boat then a warrior first. It helped me met and trade with other civs sooner which helped me get some nice early trades. But It also slowed my initial expansion by like 30% or more. So a mixed bag. Plus I had to wait a few turns before conditions were right to trade too which wasted some (not allot) of the early contact. (like had to wait till they had traded with each other a bit which lowered the value of their techs giving me better trades, plus it allowed me to trade several techs for one)

 

[shumble]

This is a rather amusing thread. you are asking for advice about strategy. Two really good players(tricky and Bedes) who can beat the Deity level are giving you advice about the Monarch level and you are scoffing at everything they say.

I do not consider myself an elite player, but I have managed to beat Monarch with every Victory condition and just need a Conquest Victory to beat Emperor on every condition. I have to tell you that if I had not changed how I thought about the game based on the input from players like Bede, Tricky and others on this site, I would still not have my first Emperor Victory.


On the other hand, you are correct. There are many ways to play this game and you can take many different strategies, especially at the Monarch level and still get a victory. I only play "vanilla" so it sounds like Monarch may be a little bit harder at the "Conquest" level. Monarch was definitely difficult when I first tried it, but since you can build at the same speed as the AI it's not impossible.

In "vanilla", you cannot build a boat until Map Making anyway so I have never been in your predicament. But if you could get to know civilizations that other civs don't know, you can become a broker between different civs. For example, you meet the Aztecs who know Wheel and you meet the Babylonias who know Polytheism, but they don't know each other. You get both the techs by trading one civ for the tech that the other doesn't have.

Anyway, whenever I have won on Monarch, I usually build up a core of about 8-10 cities. The 3rd and later cities that I build usually build temples or libraries for cultural reasons, then a barracks, and then only military units. As soon as possible, I attack the weakest civilization nearest me that I can. I also try to get other civs around me into a military alliance with me so that I do not have to worry about another front and I like the fact that the nation I am fighting will waste units on the AI.

Your situation definitely looks promising from all the screenshots that I have seen. Good luck, I am interested in seeing how this game turns out.

 

[killercane]

Its so fun when people matter of factly state the obvious.

The situation is what we have been discussing. At first city your getting so little science coming in that even 80-90% science wont get you writing any sooner then 48 turns. Many turns latter you can do better but I doubt better then say 35 turns all told. Seems better to go for max turn in this situation and thats what I've observed in game as well.

The only exception might be if I wanted to be able to get code of law as well before I got philosophy so that I can get republic as a free tech. Then every turn might count if I still want to be first to philosophy.

So you started this thread wondering why the AI outexpands you on Monarch and leaves you in the dust tech wise and yet you roll your eyes when people "state the obvious?" It is hard for me to think of ANY reason why you would not go for the republic slingshot at max on monarch-standard with England. It is seriously hard NOT to get the republic slingshot on Monarch in this situation with any semblance of an expansion strategy. /rant

Building warrior-curragh-granary with two forest chops will get all of those built by 2950 (if my math is right) with your starting location, at very little risk to you from barbs or other civs. At that point you can build a settler in 6 turns, another worker, whatever, but it will not slow your expansion.

God knows that you have to take everything with a grain of salt, but when your strategy isnt working, and people are trying to give you some pointers, be thankful. This is not a "you have to do this" or "that wont work" kind of game, different strategies work well in different ways. However an experienced player will start off with a strong start, and everything snowballs from there, leaving the AI in the dust rather than vice versa.

 

[Bede]

I tried the suggestion of getting out a boat then a warrior first. It helped me met and trade with other civs sooner which helped me get some nice early trades. But It also slowed my initial expansion by like 30% or more. So a mixed bag. Plus I had to wait a few turns before conditions were right to trade too which wasted some (not allot) of the early contact. (like had to wait till they had traded with each other a bit which lowered the value of their techs giving me better trades, plus it allowed me to trade several techs for one)

I am confused. How did building a curragh (15 shields) and then a warrior (10 shields) slow your expansion by 30%? True, that is 35 shields towards a granary but with the right terrain around you a lot of that can be made up by cutting down trees.

You seem fixated on city count versus your rivals. That may not be the optimal way to look at your progress. It all depends on the map. Just wrapped up a Deity game with a Spaceship win with only five cities. And have won Always War games with only three, though not above Monarch.

It is not the number of cities you have, or the percent of territory you control, that is critical in the early stage of the game. It is the quality of those towns. How well developed is the workable terrain and how much food, gold and shields can they produce are the important measures.

On the trading part:
Waiting those turns was a good call as patience is often rewarded in early trading rounds, but I wouldn't say the early contacts were ever wasted. The more people you know the better your situation all around.

It would really help your lurkering advisory panel help you if you would attach a save.

 

[tR1cKy]

Considering that this guy is replying to reasoned advice with approximative statements, plain wrong assertions and, sometimes, pure mockery, i wonder if he's really seeking for help.

 

[TruePurple]

@tricky I'm reply to your reasoned advice with reason of my own. Are you faulting my reasoning? Then lets hear it. Anyways I was mostly looking for advice about how to not get out expanded so badly. Some stuff I don't need advice on because I already understand (what ever segment of the game) Others I took to heart and tried, like the earlier ship thing. I didn't "mock" anyone, sorry if it seemed like that.

Open to other opinion and advice as well but please don't get huffy or defensive if I dissect it with reasoning.

@bede hmm, well that was just my approximation. Not sure exactly how much difference it made. I tried it both ways and without the ship/warrior first I was done in 3000 BC. With, I was done in 2700-2800 bc or so I think. I suppose it was best that I make that boat first. Sure helps to be able to explore the coastline without pissing off your neighbors by running through their domain. Thanks for the help.

Ok heres the saves you requested.

Basic brit 3 is my current game. I had to waste 8 shields to make that spearman when I was working on a granary on ivory hill and a bunch of barbs showed up at my door. Also forced me to expand in another direction for a awhile (should have poped a archer instead so I could take care of the nuisance) Decided to slow down my expansion enough to get out a swordsman who is on the way to get that barb village (if the Aztec archer doesn't get them first)

I sent a few boats over in an attempt to reach other civs, the first one sinking within a square of safety. That first ship is almost done sailing around the contenant and I'll try with that one too. Seafaring might reduce that sinking chance but its still pretty high.

Got a war going with both Maya and Inca from refusal to give them money. Suppose that wasn't soo smart but they are kinda far away too. Maybe I should have given into one of them. Fortunately I did have that spearman protecting a settler who brushed off the Mayan warriors attack. and so far thats been the extent of the conflicts. Maybe I can trade philosophy (which I'm just about to get along with map making or the religious one which has equal science tech) with the Aztec for a military alliance against one of them.

Basic brit 2 was my previous game shortly before going to war with the Aztec (else be squeezed off the continent) Note the horde of swordsman by the borders. Maybe I should have ignored its cities and gone straight for its two metal resources.

 

[Bede]

Since you were gracious enough to send up the saves, I am going to extract the seed and run a shadow from the beginning so we can compare notes.

I will also refer you to my (in)famous "temple rant" :

Temples...temples...priests are prevaricating parasites who pillage the body politic.

You want culture, build libraries. You get something back from the investment.

You want content citizens, build marketplaces, trade for luxuries, build towns for luxuries, build colonies for luxuries.

If happiness is a problem in a settler or worker farm, it is a self-limiting problem. Raise the luxury tax, hire an MP, you only need to make the expenditure for a couple of turns. Temples are with you forever and are a permanent drag on the economy.

This obviously does not apply in all situations but it is something to keep in mind when considering building priorties. You can apply it (with suitable modification) to almost every structure in the game. It is possible to win without building anything but one granary, a short handful of barracks and maybe some libraries.

 

[TruePurple]

I played brit 3 out. I was doing pretty good, soon the inca and maya came down in force to wipe me out. I was able to get an alliance with the aztec against the inca for a tech (got some gold in the trade too) I decided against the inca because they seemed a little more powerful.

After awhile (And without any notice at all!) the aztec signed peace with the inca! Damn! The AI gets super pissed at me if I sign peace with a military alliance target. (seen them go from gracious to furious and waring at the drop of a pin)

But then the inca make peace, was able to to a tech trade plus a little gold on my part in the process too. But then a little while latter they joined in a military alliance with the maya against me! Then a little latter the aztec join the fight as well! with the whole continent attacking me I was toast.

My kingdom for me refusing to give into some gold demands.

 

[tR1cKy]

Its so fun when people matter of factly state the obvious

If you call it "reasoning" then you have some little issue to work on. Cherry-picking a single sentence from a speech and commenting it sarcastically as if it was the only thing someone said is not intelligent not reasoning. If you're really seeking advice and not doing something else, then showing some respect from people trying to help would be not a bad idea.

 

[TruePurple]

A sentence? Try a paragraph.

Everything depends on the situation, and research is a valid example. Sometimes it's cheaper to research yourself. Sometimes it's more convenient to go with the zero research gambit and collect money for trading techs later. It's up to you to judge the situation. The statement "with all that money i can buy a couple of techs" sometimes it's true, sometimes it isn't

Thats all very obvious vague and uselsss. I mean seriously, whats the point of saying all (or any) of that? The statement you quoted, (or should I say.. cherry picked?) was directed at a specific situation where it was true for that situation. I never said it was true to all situations or anything of the sort.

"Its up to you to judge the situation" really? I thought that was freds job.
I mean, are you basically saying think it through, like I wouldn't if you didn't say that?

 

[TruePurple]

@Killercan,
Please explain- translate " republic slingshot at max". What exactly are you advising?

 

[tR1cKy]

The more i read from this guy, the more i'm convinced he's trying to upset people on purpose. We have a very specific word to describe people with such an attitude, right?

 

[MeteorPunch]

@Killercan,
Please explain- translate " republic slingshot at max". What exactly are you advising?

How much science you are investing. In other words, as much science as you possibly can, preferably at 100%.

 

[MeteorPunch]

@TruePurple: Bede, killercane, and tR1cKy are some of the best Civ 3 players there are. Their advice will work. Try to ask for clarification (like you asked killer) , than to just disregard a piece of advice.

 

[killercane]

Research writing at 100% science, Code of Laws at 100%, and then Philosophy at 100%. Those percentages might change to a 90/10 or 80/20 science/lux split if you have capital happiness issues (I believe on monarch your 3rd citizen is discontent) but a warrior or two acting as military police can solve most of those problems. With England's trait bonuses, and starting with Alphabet, it should be easy to get to CoL and Philosophy before the AI even gets writing, especially if you hold on to alphabet for some time to maximize its value.

This puts you in position to trade alphabet around (after you have writing), and then writing (after you have started on philosophy). Those two techs alone can often bring you to tech parity with the early contacts from the curragh and the trade deals that have resulted from that. Being first to republic brings in a tremendous boost to your economy, and gives you 3 monopoly techs, philosophy, CoL, and republic, to trade around for more expensive AA techs and even MA techs. I often do mathematics and then currency after that, and by that time hopefully the AI has researched Mapmaking, polytheism, and construction so that I can trade for those and get me to the Middle Ages.

 

[Tribute]

Actually, one worker per town is alright if you have a very food poor start or build very closely. I tend to only build one using OCP and my workers work about until a few techs before steam power. Enough for a few forest plant and chop rounds for tundra towns. Of course, if my start is full of jungle. . . .

Meh. I usually also build two workers for my inner core (capital and all immediate cities surrounding it). But I forgot to say that.