Journal of a random game.

I shall try researching writing on full and make note of exactly how many turns it takes. It will cripple that early trading (which is the point of getting in that boat) to not have any spare gold. Also getting map makiing latter makes it harder to get a good number of communications (like 4 or 5) sooner. But I shall try it.

@tricky I'm asking you as nicely as I can to please not talk down to me. Especially not throw accusations at me (of trolling) in the third person. Not very nice.

I might not be as good as some of you guys at playing civ 3 but I'm an equal when it comes to being a person. I only want to discuss this stuff in the terms of equals. As tricky so generously pointed out, its my game, my choice. So if I want to question a piece of advice, or even worse, simply not follow it, please don't get all huffy. This isn't directed at all of you, bede for example has been nothing but nice. Thank you :)
 
TruePurple said:
@tricky I'm asking you as nicely as I can to please not talk down to me. Especially not throw accusations at me (of trolling) in the third person. Not very nice.
Trolling is exactly what you did, mister. And now you complain about someone being "not nice" with you after you have been the first to disrespect and scorn those replying at your request of advice.

Just in case you don't want to re-read the whole thread, i'm quoting some of your previous "nice" statements.
TruePurple said:
"Its up to you to judge the situation" really? I thought that was freds job.
I mean, are you basically saying think it through, like I wouldn't if you didn't say that?
Now what is the scope of such a thing?
TruePurple said:
Thats all very obvious vague and uselsss. I mean seriously, whats the point of saying all (or any) of that?...
Ditto. Let's go on with the rest:
TruePurple said:
...The statement you quoted, (or should I say.. cherry picked?) was directed at a specific situation where it was true for that situation. I never said it was true to all situations or anything of the sort.
It's interesting to see that you didn't even ask what i was referring to, before going with the sarcasm. Just in case you want to know, i was replying to this:
TruePurple said:
Look, lets assume an average of 6 gold a turn for having tech at 10% (a low ball number, probably higher then 6) 50 turns of this... thats 300 gold. You can buy about two techs with that much gold. If I set my research as high as I could for writing I might have it done in roughly 35 turns instead of 50. In the 15 left over turns I could produce another tech. My way of setting tech at 10% leaves me at the minimum.. one tech ahead.
This is vague, and it's not my fault. What are those "pair of techs" you want to buy with 300 golds? How many beakers to they cost? How much are they backwards considering the actual tech progress? Do they sport a government, or a wonder, or a resource, or a unique unit for someone? If they sport a wonder, has it already been built by someone? How many AS already know that tech? 300 golds may buy several techs or none. If it's a monopoly tech, forget to buy it for any reasonable price. It it's pottery when everyone has already 2nd-tier techs, it's usually quite affordable.

Let's consider that the tech in question is Writing. Well, it changes nothing. It could be convenient to buy it. It could be convenient to research it on your own. If it's self-researched, it could be convenient to use the zero-research gambit or research it at full steam. It depends not only on your actual money production, but also on how much you think to be producing in the following 30-40 turns and on a pair of variables i listed in the previous paragraph. And please note that not all of them are easy to figure out.

You are free to follow or ignore anything. And you are free to think that some advice is vague and useless, but before commenting them in a dubious manner, can you please at least ask for a clarification? You cannot expect everyone to be always 100% clear, precise and correct. If you had asked politely, i would have given in return a polite reply as well, as clear as my knowledge of English allows me to be.

If, on the other hand, you reply with something like this:
TruePurple said:
Its so fun when people matter of factly state the obvious :rolleyes:
you cannot expect to receive a standing ovation in return, right? Remember that, before being hit by your "politeness" my only critic to you was "IMO, you seem to dismiss advice too quickly", or something like that. Anyway, good luck with your progress in mastering the game. My speech is already too long.
 
Founded london on the spot. Will have a nice mix of inland and coastal. Start research at Writing 100% (43 turns). First build is a....curragh. Worker heads out to road grassland NW. Road finishes in 3 turns and time to research writing drops to 32.

When curragh finishes start warrior.

By turn 10 when the borders expand and the second citizen is working time to research writing is down to 23.

By turn 14 time to writing is down to 16 and warrior is exploring due west.

The curragh meets the Maya to the north in 3200.

I can get his 10g and any of his knowledge (Masonry, Warrior Code or Burial for Alphabet). Now Masonry is tempting because it leads to Mathematics but I will let it pass for now.

In 3100 and Inca scout greets the curragh from the Northeast. He knows Bronze Working and Masonry and Maya doesn't know Bronze. There is a possible two-fer here. Besides the scout is only one move away from the Mayan border so the deal will go through with me or without me. Now I can get Masonry and 10g for Bronze, then Warrior Code for Alphabet.

By turn 20 Writing is due in in 10 as London gets its third citizen and threatens to riot.

In 2950 Monte appears to the westbound warrior and wants to buy Masonry for Ceremonial Burial. I'm not heading down that path and since he has nothing the other nations don't already he has no way of getting those two techs, so I say thanks but no thanks and pass on.

The warrior turns south to explore the next tier of terrain back towards home.

In 2550 I sell Masonry to Monte for Ceremonial Burial and 10g to finance research into Code of Laws.

In 2390 Maya know Iron Working which they will sell for Writing but have money to put into the deal and there is no place to sell it on to excpet for The Wheel so I pass.

First settler comes out the gate in 2310 and heads north. In 2230 the town of York is founded and a Gepid villager teaches us the wheel.

The Aztecs buy their letters for 25g as I need the cash to keep the scientists working on Code of Laws.

In 1830 found Nottingham to the south for the wheat and sell Writing to Maya for Mysticism and 46g.

In 1650BC Inca extorts writing from me but I then sell him Code of Laws for Iron Working and his 4g.

In 1600BC the Alemanni to the west teach our lone archer Horseback Riding.

And in 1575 a doughty curragh makes an ocean crossing and meets the Romans to the east. Caesar is truly ignorant so I teach him how to bury his dead for his 25g.

In 1525 the wandering archer busts an Iberian camp for 25g and finds horses under it.

And in 1475 nail the Republic with the Philospohy gambit. Start research on Literature at 100%. And because the neighbors have been stirring up the near-by barbarian camps confront the first Alemanni horseman.

In 1325 met the Americans and make a deal for all his cash 109g for Philosphy, then take Polytheism for Code of Laws and Horseback Riding then trade Philosophy to Monte for all his gold (31g), then trade him Code of Laws and Polytheism for Map Making. Then use the stash o' cash to open embassies and find the locals are all building the Pyramids while the boyos on the other continent are building settlers due in 2 in their pop2 capitols which will grow in 5 :shakehead:

Lose a worker and a warrior to the Alemanni horsemen stirred up by the Mayan warriors to the north.

In 1050 meet the Iroquois and the Zulu in the far east. Both are poor and ignorant.

I continued until 370BC but did not keep a log. Researched Lit and Currency at maximum and traded for Construction to hit the Middle Agesby 670BC, all by me lonesome.

Fought no wars and had minimal barbarian hassles until the Maya stirred things up in the jungles to the north. I avoided all goody huts and only attacked camps with an archer I had built.

At no time until after the revolt to Republic did science fall below 80%. And the only reason it is now at 10% is that I went hog-wild building workers and had to eat troop support costs. And I had removed most of the money in the world into my treasury so I couldn't hit up the neighbors for cash.

The Forbidden Palace as not been built yet as I still lack the city count.

All of these things will take care of themselves in the next 500 years or so.

I would have had more towns down if I had used a town other than London for settler equipping.

Tough start for an all out expansionist strategy. One of the things you have to look out for is the population count in the town where settlers are trained. It should never drop below four, especially if it is the capitol as the loss of commerce is crippling.

Bede's Britain

BedesBritain.jpg


In conlcusion I have not out expanded the AI but I have out-researched them. Now I need to start building population and an effective military. I only have 12 total troops right and most of them are warriors.

The point of all this is that you don't need more cities or more people than the other guys, you just need to make the best use of what you do have.
 
Hold on. Your numbers just don't click with my experience. Max research starting out its 48 turns to writing,

Road finished.. turns drop by 1. City expands and a second pop works on a tile. Turns is 28 or 39 counting the 11 turns already gone by. Altogether it takes 37 turns to get writing on maxed (minus lux) research.

I can't help notice the different graphics, your using a mod, I'm not. This might explain the difference, we're not playing the same game.

Alright I tried it a number of different ways. Building a ship worker and warrior first gave me a granary (using two chops) at year 2550 which is 45 turns.

Another way, building the granary straight off. No chops, done in year 2850. Built a settler then a ship and made the contacts. Aside from irritating Maya by going through their domain I shortly made contact with the 3 and was able to make most of the same trades (well a little less since I didn't have gold to work with) I made when I made the boat first.

Another version including making two workers and two chops and finishing a turn latter then one worker (the second worker must slow it down by reducing pop level)

BTW the hill is a better spot imo for your cap, gives you access to the whale resource and it allowed you to plant your northern city between the bonus grassland instead of on it. (not to mention the hills defensive bonus) Well that applies to me, I don't see bonus grassland in your pic, not in that mod? Would you please give me a link to that mod?
 
TruePurple said:
I can't help notice the different graphics, your using a mod, I'm not. This might explain the difference, we're not playing the same game.
pssst... the use of a graphic mod don't change in any way the game rules and mechanics. You have already visited the "Graphics Modpack" section and also posted in the Ranch style borders thread (post #10), so it's curious you didn't know that.
 
I would recheck your math, Bede is quite correct. No one is trying to denigrate you, TP; we are all just trying to help, Tricky as well, though you have put people off on the wrong foot.
 
What math? For you two science starts out 43 turns on 100%, for me it starts out 48. When it expands it drops to 28 turns (Plus 11 turns already passed) He says 23, not sure if that includes turns passed, I assume it does since it still includes him being 5 turns sooner then me.

You guys are both playing conquest right?

Proof? I can do that
 

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I see your point. Both cities are producing 5 beakers, therefore it might be a patch issue or something of that nature if you dont have 1.22. Otherwise who knows but Im through with this.
 
Oops. I had just started a Monarch game before I picked yours up and set up with the seed. So the settings defaulted to Monarch and I missed it. God is in the details.

Sorry.

But, the case still holds. If you push the commerce and build your towns closer together, and push the science lever to the stops, and sail the masts out of the dinghies, you will see the same kind of results, especially at Emperor when the AI actualy does some research for you.
 
But on emperor level when it takes 37 turns to research writing from the start at max research, shouldn't I go for the gold instead? That gold is really useful in trading, not so much for direct buying techs but for getting an additional tech in a trade when your tech side of the trade is so much bigger then the AI. You can get some real bargains in tech trades if you have some gold as well.

So do you still think I should max research or go for max turn research and get a bunch of gold? I suppose those 13 turns could give you enough breathing room to research code of law and still get to philosophy on time.

But if I'm really careful with my tech trading and hold off trading the techs leading up to philosophy (alphabet and writing) as long as I safely can I might be able to the republic jump even with max turn writing. Not sure how much gold it produce going max turn but a decent bunch. And having that gold, besides trading.. means that I can keep tech slider up higher for longer and just take a per turn gold loss. So what do you think?

As far as getting that boat out early. Its hard to believe but I throughly went through the numbers, I got a granary out twice as fast skipping the boat/warrior/worker bit.(and saved two forests for latter chop) And none of the other AI's get alphabet for quite some time so I can safely trade tech up latter just as well as earlier. (plus I want to wait till latter too if I'm going to max turn and want to delay the AI getting the two philosophy techs)

Between monarch and emperor is a big jump. I'd be curious how you would do in that world on emperor. Would you please try and detail another game except in emperor? Do it what ever way you think will cause the best results, since I don't know what you mean by "expansion strategy". I thought expansion was everyones strategy.

BTW, if you feel commerce is so important, why ignore the ivory hill spot? Good commerce growth defense (hills) (metal) and forest to chop.

Also, besides less travel time for settlers, little less road work for workers, and easier to defend.. why not optimal place em? Why are some so close? (like warwick and conventry, the river extends upwards)

Why AVOID goody huts? They sometimes produce hostiles but I believe the odds are at least 66% that you get something good.(sometimes even techs!) And when the goody hut is on defensible terrain you have natural way to survive that initial attack. I mean it seems crazy to me to avoid them altogether as for lottery tickets they give good odds.

Also why not expand west? Theres cow, game, and horse resources over that way.

Thanks for the tip about not spawning any settlers/workers from cap when its under 4 pop. I'll keep that in mind.
 
I think the fact that you are playing on Emperor changes much. Everybody has most likely been giving you strategies based on the fact that you are playing on Monarch. I know for sure that I was. In Emperor, everything changes. I still am struggling with this level although foolishly I started a story in this Forum and it will probably end prematurely because I am telling it on the Emperor level.

So far, in the 4 games I've won on Emperor, I have not done much research(I let the computer do it all) and I build a lot of military and attack my weakest neighbor first. I also concentrated on trying to get 7-8 cities as quick as possible before I began fighting.

I actually lose as much as I win on Emperor due to the fact that I do not micromanage very well. That is an area that I need to improve in. Also, I sometimes don't have the patience to wait for my cities to build huge stacks and I end up attacking prematurely.

Too bad I don't have the Conquest version or I would have loaded your save and gave it a try to myself.

Pretty funny, but this post is getting more views than most of the stories in the forum. I see that you're up to 700 views already :crazyeye:
 
Bah couldnt resist and Im bored anyways, so we'll give it a go. Using the above advice/arguments/rhetoric and on Emperor, the British empire looks like this:

england_MA1.jpg


The differences between Monarch and Emperor were, I think, marginal in this case; I built two warriors at first, rather than only one, then the curragh and then the granary aided by the forest chop to shave a turn. I followed more of an expansionist gambit than Bede probably would do, and London never made it to size 6. This was partially made up by building Hastings so close that it could use the bonus grass(es) and produce military and the occasional settler.

Note that I did benefit from an early settler circa 3000 bc, but not in an immediately useful spot; the city only built workers, one archer and one settler in the AA. I never found the last civ due to the barbs killing my boats, I guess they were the Iro or whoever. Knowing that the Zulu and Americans were expansionist, I held writing from them for as long as possible to cut down the chances they would pop philosophy and waste it on something dumb. Republic done in 1475, traded for math, did currency followed by construction. Once polytheism was researched or popped by the Zulu I gave it to all the civs on my landmass because I would rather the Temple of Artemis be on my continent than on the other. I did leave some workers uncovered who were gobbled up by barbs but that didnt hurt me too bad.
 
Killercane, Is that pollution at 850 BC? It appears that you were able to expand very, very quickly.
 
The volcano in the middle erupted 3 times and spewed all of that pollution. The early extra settler helped, and not growing the capital traded science for growth potential. I built settlers whenever feasible from the first ring towns. There were two instances where I had unescorted settlers converging to spots that were potentially barb dangerous; one example is Liverpool where a barb camp sprang up in the interturn and forced me to settle where it stands and the other did not see any barbs.

Edit: Another small advantage of mine was knowing that there was another continent somewhere nearby from Bedes earlier description, and luckily my curragh survived the ocean and met most of the other civs until it succumbed to barbs on the other side of the 2nd continent.

I normally would not have popped the hut, but the build of two warriors at first gave me a margin of safety. I left two others alone near my territory so the AI could get a tech or gold to give to me.

To answer one of TruePurple's questions, the hill spot requires a move of the settler, gives less land tiles in the city radius, and loses some quality bonus grass, in exchange for the whale and the hill defensive bonus. The hill bonus shouldnt come in to play, and the whale is but a small loss.
 
Whats up with the trio of cities norwitch liverpool and warwick all crowding around the barren frost land?

killercane said:
would rather the Temple of Artemis be on my continent than on the other."

You mean if your able to take it from the civ who gets it?

Its a interesting strategy, My game has been more compact, lots of land improvement ..less expansion. Which has been a big problem under republic. From having so many workers my upkeeps been like 26 gold a turn. Yet every ones been needed improving tiles that are currently worked or soon to be worked.
 
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