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June 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by DWilson, Jun 25, 2020.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I really don’t know how I feel about the past two months.

    This update is actually quite substantial. It’s just that a lot of the content is focused on Red Death, and most people are saying “meh, not interested”.

    Thing is, Red Death is really fun. And the additional complexity and polish FXS have added really takes it from this sort of in-house random mode, to a real game option. What’s more, stuff like this makes the game richer overall, even if it’s just because it lets developers try stuff out or gets people talking about the game.

    Apocalypse Mode is sort of the same thing in a way. Yeah, bit out their for Civ, but that’s sort of good to have in the game. If anything, I think it’s a pity FXS didn’t get a bit more gonzo with Apocalypse Mode. Their Twitter suggests they might add some more disasters, so cross fingers. And hey, Red Death has Zombie Barbarians. So perhaps there’s a chance they could make it into Apocalypse Mode. Soothsayers raising Zombies could be sort of interesting too.

    And I also think that, if the game has room for this sort of stuff, having it released early in the season makes sense. Save the more meaty stuff for later. Apocalypse Mode and Red Death sort of fit together conceptually too - end of the world and post end of the world.

    ...but, yeah. So far, most of the new content really doesn’t address some of the ongoing gameplay issues - population not really being valuable, mid to late game it’s flying by and feeling irrelevant - and the game is still missing sort of key content including stuff from previous games - eg ideology and ideological pressure, units, corporations etc. I’m also a bit disappointed with some of the things that have been tweaked - eg I’m not sure the Religious buff really goes far enough.

    But Civ VI is mostly about lots of little systems that add together, and there’s clearly a lot more to get added into NFP. So, I guess it’s all just still wait and see?

    For me, I’m probably not going to dive back into the game for another month. I think I’d rather wait for the next DLC and update, to see if that moves the needle a bit more. I’m still mostly hopeful that NFP will end up the expansion Civ VI needed + the necessary patching / balancing / fixing stuff / polish that was lacking. But it’s also clear it’s going to be a long wait for the game to really step up another level.

    For the reasons stated above, I really think that’s a bit harsh. It’s good to have stuff like this in the game, if only because it lets the developers try stuff out.

    I really disagree. The point of food v housing v amenities is that you have to balance all three to achieve growth. FXS seem to be now stripping out a lot of this complexity, so you basically just get two out of three - sometimes even three out of three - in the same mechanic. This bonus basically just means “auto growth” instead of having to really make things work by leveraging multiple mechanics.

    Indeed, this is a really annoying trend I’m seeing with the game’s development. Lots of interesting parts of the game are just getting ditched on the basis it’s too hard or whatever. And there is also just so much “dial everything up to 11” with the yields.

    Another example of this from last year was Lumbermills. Yes, they were a bit weak. But the flat +2 came at the cost of losing River adjacencies, meaning they lost a lot of interesting placement mechanics. Allowing Lumbermills on Rainforests also got rid of the tension between the early utility of Rainforests for unimproved yields but late game disadvantage of weak adjacencies and no improvements. See also yields from disasters, which are just getting more and more mental, as are Campus adjacencies. Honestly, adding in reefs for Campuses, plus the existing mountains, jungle, geo thermals, means you can basically just build the things anywhere. They may just as well say Campuses get +1 per adjacent tile and we can all just build +6 Campuses every time.

    I mean, okay, some of this isn’t a big deal. And generally FXS do a really great job with balance changes. But FXS really need to be careful, and they really need to start focusing on making the game “tighter” not just buffing stuff. Over the next few patches and DLC, I’d really like to see big populations start having real value but without just pushing plays to make every City huge, I’d really like to see managing empires (including managing gold) get a lot harder, and I’d really, really like to see FXS focus a bit more on playing the map with the various balances changes rather than just buffing buffing buffing yields.


    Maybe. I think some people, including me, are just a little impatient. We’ve been waiting for a Third Expansion for ages to address some key areas; then, when we get a Third Expansion, it’s basically being rolled out over twelve months; and then the first two content drops don’t really address core areas of the game that needed work / expansion.

    In fairness, I think FXS probably made the right choice starting with some of this more peripheral stuff like disasters and multi-player. And I think the staggered release will result in a better game overall. But it’s going to still be quite few months before the game gets significantly better in ways that some (maybe a lot?) of people are wanting.

    I’m not wanting to be harsh. The game is generally in pretty good shape the stuff that’s come out is good, and I’m still happy I bought the NFP upfront because I think more really good stuff is coming. But I am getting a bit fed up waiting for the game to get better in a few key areas. Guess I just need to be patient...
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
    Pure24, Sic, Civ Chemist and 6 others like this.
  2. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    It seemed pretty clear from the live stream that they added Dover to the list specifically because of community feedback.
     
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  3. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

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    It should've changed over in game. I'm currently playing a Khmer game and I have Pilgrimage as one of my beliefs. When I loaded it after the update, Pilgrimage was changed to the new rules of being in All cities, not just foreign.

    There could be a bug with Work Ethic though. On Reddit people were reporting it only working in half their cities. Also apparently if your holy site gets pillaged and you repair it, the production bonus doesn't come back.
     
    Myomoto likes this.
  4. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator King

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    This patch is just setting the stage for Ethiopia update in July.
    obviously Ethiopia is going to be VERY religious civ geared towards religious victory.
     
    Ziad, WorldWarIV, Kjimmet and 8 others like this.
  5. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I think the next DLC and update will be a pretty good indication where NFP is going.

    Anton said Secret Societies will be fairly fantastical. The question is whether it’ll have more real impact on gameplay than Apocalypse Mode and, after that, what the more historical Game Modes will bring to the game (might get some indications about that once SS is out).

    SS might also be a jumping off point for more balancing / tweaking around Religion and or Spies. There’s also a new District, which might also come with new mechanics (eg like the Gov Plaza). And it’s also another opportunity for FXS to take a stab at mechanics generally, including revisiting Apocalypse Mode (I have some ideas about AM here).

    So. Fingers crossed.
     
    Myomoto likes this.
  6. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    So they made religious victory less of a chore, but only for the one particular player who happens to have that one belief... Seriously?

    Absolutely no one has said they expected "massive rebalancing and free new content", that's all in your head.
     
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  7. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator King

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    Why wouldn't you choose this belief if you are seeking religious victory? Next you are complaing that out of all religious buildings only Mosque is favorable towards religious victory.
     
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  8. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Because more than one player can be pursuing religious victory and only one of them can have the belief, didn't that occur to you?
     
  9. PenngwynXVII

    PenngwynXVII Chieftain

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    That change to Work Ethic...

    Work Ethic + an adjacency pantheon + Scripture...

    Well, this is basically a classical era Coal plant, at the cost of a district alone, with no aqueduct/dam/canal needed.

    Could be one of the biggest changes they've ever made to the game.
     
  10. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    The norwegian stave church would be pretty solid if you got that religion into your cities, too.
     
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  11. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    The enhancement towards religion is game changing.

    1 science/culture per 4 followers is definitely very strong. And good founder beliefs actually make Kongo much better. (however it can't use many of the good follower beliefs)

    So as better follower beliefs for India. Think about having the new feed the world, work ethic combined with choral music, the bonus now becomes very strong.

    Basically we're having Founder Belief++, and follower belief not limited to Choral Music.

    Pagoda seems very good given diplo favors value that high in trade, and also the favor from pagoda cancels the penalty from capturing capitals, bringing back the previous way for diplomatic victory, as you only need to build a lot of pagodas to make you favor positive to get +2 score on World Congress.

    With Work Ethic, the Russian and the Japanese now have earlier, cheaper and more productive Hansas. Australia, Netherlands, Indonesia and Brazil also benefit from this. We're going to see crazy Brazilian Holy Sites with 24 faith and 24 production with Sacred Paths. Poor Kongo.

    Generally religion is much stronger.

    Civs benefited Most:
    Russia, Japan

    Slighted Benefited:
    India, Australia, Netherlands, Indonesia, Brazil, Spain, Khmer

    Relatively Nerfed:
    Kongo, Germany
     
  12. Kibikus

    Kibikus Warlord

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    What I don't remember is: Could you heal in foreign cities following your religion before this patch, and this belief just increases the healing rate?
     
  13. lz14

    lz14 Prince

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    inconsequential update that overwrites all the custom changes I've made to the files.

    Annoying
     
  14. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    For sure. Firaxis should definitely consult with you about your custom changes before making changes to the game for everyone else.
     
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  15. TigerBulkRate

    TigerBulkRate Chieftain

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    I just ran a quick test game and it is in fact beyond powerful. I played Russia and you could just spam out cities with 6-8 adjacency lavras, once I got the faith card it got really insane. 2 pop cities with 20 production? Sure, why not. You huge production and faith lets you spam out settlers with incredible speed, and since all your new cities need to be industrial powerhouses is one lavra, well, it gets out of control fast.

    Only problem is I've run into a bug where a pillaged holy site, once repaired, no longer grants the adjacency production boost. Has anyone else encountered this bug?
     
  16. Ivan Hunger

    Ivan Hunger King

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    You were supposed to be able to, but it was bugged and never actually worked. Maybe they quietly fixed that in this patch?
     
  17. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    So they are still completely useless, except for the extremely rare Petra city.
     
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  18. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    As @Sostratus well stated, most of us were expecting a new expansion, and, well, if it's priced as one and it's presented like one, I guess it is one. The fact that it got stretched over a year still makes it "the third expansion" in our hearts.

    The logic behind this patch is a bit confusing.

    If players started playing again (like I did) because of Season pass, new features like Red Death 2 (cool as they might be, but have nothing with core gameplay) should be added when players are already a bit bored with Season Pass. Not at the start of it.

    There's plenty of work to be done with this game, and I don't find religion to be one of them. Not saying these changes are not welcome by the religious gameplay fans.
    But, if you compare how fleshed out religion is already, compared to, say, science, espionage, amenities or heck, even population and food, I guess you can see how it might annoy me to some extent.

    Why or how the entertainment district is still the enfant terrible of Civ6 is beyond my comprehension. Media houses, traveling circuses, etc. are not in the game, but we are still debating if warrior monks are worth it.

    Religion in Civ6 is, in my opinion, the best implementation of it yet. But, like with every other gameplay mechanic of civ6, past the first 150 turns it turns to crap. And so we have useless prophet points (issue "fixed" by turning into faith per turn) and rock bands and naturalists that use faith as a resource. Why on earth, I don't know.

    Wouldn't it be more logical to use faith for some new disaster relief units, workers or some new amenity buildings?
     
  19. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Totally agree.

    Many beliefs are also now “flatter” and therefore further buff wide play. ie Beliefs like Cross Cultural Dialogue originally only provided benefits for foreign Cities converted to your Religion. Now it also applies to your own Cities as well (ie doesn’t matter who owns the City). So, you can just spam Cities, and each one will give you an additional +1 Science.

    I’ve had a theory for a while that Religion was sort of geared around being viable for Small and Tall empires, which helps offset the opportunity cost of Founding a Religion. You don’t need lots of Cities, you don’t need lots of Military, and you don’t need lots of Culture or Science. Examples of mechanics that fit that idea are Beliefs that provide %bonuses (Work Ethic), leverage followers in other cities (see above), provide housing / food / amenities, and allow you to get more culture or science in a single City more easily (eg Jesuit, Choral); “optimal” Government for Religion being Available as a Tier 2 Government (so you don’t really need to get to T3 Governments); and Religion tech and units being essentially all unlocked very early in the Civic / Tech trees.

    These buffs change that focus a lot. Religion now works much better with wide play, although there is obviously also still stuff that buffs taller Cities (eg Feed the World).

    I’m not saying this is necessarily a bad change. But standing back, the past few mods have tended towards making many mechanics “flatter”. eg Lumbermills just get buffed in all situations now, not just adjacent to rivers; Coastal Cities basically have the same housing as Inland Cities and can get the same Campus adjacencies; Policy Cards apply to previous Era units so you don’t have to more carefully manage your Culture burn.

    Likewise, all the various Builder Improvements buffs, which all sort of seem good on the surface, have also caused a lot of flattening. You really can now just improve anything / everything, and end up with just masses of gold and food and other yields.

    And housing now seems to be almost irrelevant. There are just so many ways to get housing. It’s freaking crazy.

    I’m really not a fan of the game losing nuance. If it just becomes this “dial it up to 11” yield fest, then the game will just get less interesting.

    Again, not saying the Religion changes are bad specifically. Indeed, I mostly like the changes. But I just feel like the tuning of his game is getting really out of whack overall. I’m already drowning in production and gold most games, with very little meaningful to spend things on. FXS really need to be careful that they have a good overall meta for how this game works, and make sure the game retains the core ideas of “play the map” and “interesting (meaningful) decisions”.

    In fairness to FXS, I really think Religious Beliefs did need work. Yes, there are lots of other things that need work too, but Religion really was one of them. Founding a Religion really was of too little value, and that was itself a big nerf to Civs that leverage Religion like Spain (nerf both in terms of power and fun).

    My wider concerns aside, I do think the Belief changes will make Religion and a bunch of Civs way more fun to play.

    I’m not sure Work Ethic is that powerful overall, but agree it might be one to keep an eye on.

    The catch with Work Ethic is the initial and ongoing investment, eg you have to Found a Religion or have it spread to you, and you have to then maintain that Religion in your City. Then there’s also opportunity costs (like, seriously, do you need all that Production?).

    There’s a punch of “OMFG ITS TOTES OP SEE MY LAVRA BRO!?!” posts on Reddit about Work Ethic, but I think I’d rather see what people thing once they’ve played with it for a few weeks.

    Still. Lumbermill etc Production Buffs, Volcano and other Disaster Yields, and now Work Ethic. It really does feel like there are a LOT more hammers and coins in the game now.
     
  20. lz14

    lz14 Prince

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    They changed resource.xml, policy.xml for example.

    Is that documented in the patch notes ??? anything important happened there ??? No.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2020

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