June/July Patch Notes

I don't know if this is what you meant, but a SP tree giving bonuses to either the one that takes it for maintaining good relationships, or your trading partners to encourage good relationships, would be a nice idea. In civ 4, open borders enabled international trade routes, which helped both civs, for example. In civ5, we could have similar things, like cheaper SPs if taken by a befriended civ, bonus research, whatever, and it would be a fun addition, that wouldn't necessarily break the game.
This.

Also, it could imo be the ideal tree to place bonuses towards RAs with friendly civs. Perhaps cheaper strategic resources from friendly civs if available or increase the amount of them with a modifier etc...

I'm well aware that the basics of diplomacy between civs in CiV is pretty much impossible to work with...
 
Man Longsword Rushes got nerfed HARD.
No free meritocracy GS to bulb, reduced strength, harder to RA slingshot, AND metal casting now requires construction so that is even more techs you need to gain access to them.

This patch continues the Firaxis tradition of locating strong player strategies and nerfing them massively. It also applies the same principles to culture, happiness and to a lesser extent gold that the march patch applied to production. What htey did there is reduce all large multipliers, give more base units, and spread the bonuses across the tech eras more equally.

For culture, all the massive bonuses, Cristo, constitution, free speech, got reduced or changed and they put more culture earlier. With the reduced culture cost per city and the piety buffs to culture production it looks like they want you to build culture in more cities and annexed puppets. Increased culture per building though temple and smaller modifiers, along with reduced sp costs per city means lesser culture cities can still at least pay their way more effectively. The new piety and hermitage are meant to give earlier less severe boosts to that growth, as is the new honor. Increases to a number of wonder culture outputs and the new constituion are other new sources of base culture. This replaces no brainer choices like freedom and spreads the gain out. I remember concern over production being nerfed back in February and that was not the case, they just moved it.

For happiness they moved it from one main policy, Theocracy to many subsidiary ones, and made it more building focused. This leads to happiness being involved in the majority of social poliocy and building choices. It also makes puppeting more complex. With the right policies annexing is a happiness BOOST, not a drop. Wonder's also give more happiness adding yet another source. That forces happiness to come from more places. Its spread throughout the tech tree now considering the number of buildings that can boost it now, and is found in most policy trees. The bonuses to observatory and monastery happiness follow the intent of the circus to make terrain more important. The stables and forge did the same thing for production.

For gold its less obvious. They nerfed the strongest gold wonder in Big ben. They also added gold to a number of other wonders, and strengthened Machu Picchu. Ironically enough the best gold boost policy is NOT in commerce, but in Piety. 10% gold boost per city with a temple means the boost will affect your whole original empire and many of your puppets. It blows the 25% capital bonus to shreds, except in a OCC of course. Though Mercantilism is still the strongest gold multiplier though, at least for production. Theocracy is the new shrine income to me, though I don't plan to use it much.

The biggest change to gold income is probably going to be puppet empires. With the new focus on happiness from buildings they'll become a happiness sink more quickly. Yes they build wallls and monuments/ temples, but never all of the affected buildings. I don't remember many if any of my puppets building universities or public schools, so if you go rationalism instead of piety they're even more of a happiness hole.Without the puppet empire to provide the economic base, the sources of gold might vary greatly. Especially if reduced luxury happiness requires us to trade for ai luxuries removing the other linchpin of the current economy.

Thats just my look at it and I hope it makes sense to others. If the new patch solves puupet tp spam, allows me to build and control more buildings and makes diplomacy somewhat work then I don't think I'll miss the old ways too much
 
I just wanted to comment on an experiment I just did around Hanging Gardens. I will confess that I had never even tried to build this wonder in a game because its never been a part of any strategy I've attempted.

The hypothesis was "It is impossible to build this wonder on Deity."

Here's the results for 10 games, 5 as Egypt with Aristocracy and 5 as England with Citizenship. I settled where I started in all games.

All settings for the first 5 games where Egypt, Archipelago, Deity Standard 2xWorker first build beeline for Mathematics.
Game 1 – Grassland River– Two Chops, Aristocracy turn 53
Game 2 – Plains River – Two Chops, Aristocracy turn 55
Game 3 – Desert – Two Chops, Egypt + Aristocracy Turn 54
Game 4 – Grassland – Two Chops, Egypt +Aristocracy Turn 49 BEATEN
Game 5 – Floodplains – Two Chops, Egypt + Aristocracy Turn 55

In 5 games I beat the AI 4 times as the best possible wonder builder. None of these games included hooking up Marble.

All Settings are Pangaea Deity, England Standard 1xWorker+Citizenship First Beeline Mathematics

Game 1 – Grassland – One Chop, Turn 54 BEATEN
Game 2 – Grassland – No Chop, Turn 46 BEATEN
Game 3 – Grassland – 5xChop, Turn 56 – Had to research Mining early and lucky Trapping
Game 4 – Plains 2xChop, Turn 45 – BEATEN
Game 5 – Hills 2x Chop, Turn 54

Under this condition I lost 3 of 5 times. Twice I lost to Egypt and the third I wasn't sure who beat me. The 5xChop game was one where I had to research mining very fast because I was surrounded by forest.

In both sets of games I never was DoW by anyone and while I met less people on the Archipelago maps I didn't try to meet everyone on the Pangaea to improve my research rates. I wasn't in THAT bad of a position either at the end of this and if we will be trading luxuries for Happiness instead of gold, which is debatable at this point, then I don't see hooking up luxuries first as a top priority anyway. In the last few English games I started lining up almost completed units so I could roll-over the production and at the same time produce enough units to not appear completely puny.

If HG is really that OP then it will be possible to play Deity games where you hard build it.
 
Can you come up with enough ideas that are both compelling and do NOT break diplomacy? I'll be honest: I cannot. Not without introducing entirely new concepts that are well out of bounds of a patch, such as foreign colonies, vassals, royal marriages.
You could look at it this way: if the developers felt that something was just not right about how the game works now, why the massive patch?

This, to me is an indication that the game has deeper problems rooted deep down that will not go away, even with such a massive change to the gameplay as the patch notes suggest will happen. IMO (and a lot of other players too), diplomacy is one of the core problems right now.

PS: I didn't mean for a Diplo SP Tree to fix the diplo issues of CiV, just to make that clear.

But ok, I feel we are drifting off topic with this, so I'll stop here.

Have a nice day at work.
 
Just a thought: it seems to me that in all the "Wonders" section of the patch notes the "per turn" has been omitted, so I'd say that HG gardens bonus is actually 10fpt (as I am assuming that Oxford University doesn't give a 3 science boost the turn it is built).

My general impression is that the devs want you to play with ALL aspects of the game at the same time, adapting your strategy to the actual game you are playing, instead of constantly adopting the same strategies. IMO this is a good thing: now you have to master ALL the aspects of the game if you want to consistently beat the game, instead of relying on just a small number tricks and strategies that work too well to be overlooked.

Of course, time and players more experienced than me will tell what actually happens.
 
While there might and probably will be different options after The Hanging Gardens is secured, if the 10fpt is correct, pretty much every strategy will include getting that wonder because that amount of free food in your capitol in the early game, can win the game for you.

Your capitol will grow so fat so fast, that it's buttcrack will be in prominent display over the city walls.
 
But still, especially early in the game the Happiness nerfs could balance this. Panem et circenses: food and entertainment; food alone is not going to be enough. Especially if you plan on expanding fast.

Anyway, I really can't consider myself an experienced player, so I could be totally wrong.
 
But still, especially early in the game the Happiness nerfs could balance this. Panem et circenses: food and entertainment; food alone is not going to be enough. Especially if you plan on expanding fast.

Well, it doesn't for the AI as on Immortal+, the AI has unlimited happiness. 10fpt from the Hanging Gardens means that the AI civ who builds will very likely become a runaway monster.
 
True, the happiness nerf might have some negative impact on global happiness very early on.

But usually, starting out with just your capitol, happiness is never a problem for the early game. The base happiness you start with, increase when you climb difficulty levels. It's not unusual for me to have ~10 happiness in the beginning with the capitol alone and perhaps finding a natural wonder, before the first luxury gets hooked up. So, the Hanging Gardens should not be a problem at all happiness-wise in the start, even after the patch.

PS: if you favor setting up 2-3 cities fast incl. the capitol and worry about happiness in general and from building the HG, halt population growth in the other cities until you get extra happiness online from working luxuries, trades etc. Even if you would have to endure a couple of angry faces for some time because of the HG, it would still be worth the trouble in the long run - if it is 10fpt.
 
Again: I really shouldn't comment on this, as I'm not experienced enough. But for the sake of discussion: let's say HG are really overpowered. Are they so also for the AI at higher difficulties? I mean: AI already has a lot of advantages, does +10fpt really matter? If the answer is not, while it really can put a human player on par with high level AIs, then I think that it is fair that the human player must struggle very hard to get it (i.e. build his whole strategy around it), otherwise the whole point of playing higher difficulties is missing: just be able to build the HG and you are ready to play deity.

Also I foresee the following scenario (probably in MP, more than SP): everybody rushes for HG, someone builds it and then everybody declares on him. You not only have to build the HG, you have to keep it as well. Sounds fun to me, actually.
 
Or look at it this way: The developers thought things weren't quite right, and actively sought to make it so with this patch.
Well, judging from the sheer size of the patch, quite right doesn't really cut it imo. :)

It feels a bit like turning your car in for the standard service overhaul and when they return it to you, you discover that they also exchanged some engine parts, gave it a different color, changed the seats and rims. "Oh, well we just thought your car wasn't quite right..." :p
 
Barracks, Armory, Military Academy and Krepost now provide experience to all units trained.

I missed this on my first read. Does this mean all existing units will get the benefit from building. If so, does that mean my empire only needs these buildings in one city to have my entire empire benefit from it?
 
I think it means naval and air units will get the experience too, which is very nice.
 
Well, judging from the sheer size of the patch, quite right doesn't really cut it imo. :)

It feels a bit like turning your car in for the standard service overhaul and when they return it to you, you discover that they also exchanged some engine parts, gave it a different color, changed the seats and rims. "Oh, well we just thought your car wasn't quite right..." :p

Point.

But it doesn't mean that the changes will be broken. ;)
 
Wow, permanent negative and only temporary positive diplomatic modifiers. I honestly thought there would be enough positive modifiers that actual diplomacy would be worth it. Well, looks like I'm still on the warpath then.

Not too sure about all the Happiness reductions. But...

Resource trading for happiness and good diplo might be what is required now.

Very astute observation. May help make us think twice about selling resources.

Kind of disappointed Commerce didn't get any improvements. Still looks like the most boring Social Policy tree.

"Radar now requires Combustion". What? Why? That doesn't make any sense from a gameplay or flavor standpoint.

Other than that, the rest look like improvements. Especially the RA fix. And Wonders are finally truly wonderful, instead of something to build when you don't want to build anything. Also like the improvements to the bottom-tier civs. Who also doesn't love an incentive to build Tanks?
 
Again: I really shouldn't comment on this, as I'm not experienced enough. But for the sake of discussion: let's say HG are really overpowered. Are they so also for the AI at higher difficulties? I mean: AI already has a lot of advantages, does +10fpt really matter? If the answer is not, while it really can put a human player on par with high level AIs, then I think that it is fair that the human player must struggle very hard to get it (i.e. build his whole strategy around it), otherwise the whole point of playing higher difficulties is missing: just be able to build the HG and you are ready to play deity.

Also I foresee the following scenario (probably in MP, more than SP): everybody rushes for HG, someone builds it and then everybody declares on him. You not only have to build the HG, you have to keep it as well. Sounds fun to me, actually.
The HG (with 10fpt) will have a more drastic effect for the player on growth etc. than the AI civ that builds it - especially on the hardest levels where the AI civ start bonus modifiers are huge and they essentially start out with 2-3 cities, workers and units. I would say that the wonder would have a noticeable effect for the AI civ as well, but less dramatic.

If you play like crap or 'leaned back', the HG cannot save you. No wonder can.

PS: no need to express being an unexperienced player. The questions you ask are perfectly valid and well articulated. :)
 
it look like hapiness i going down on all fronts. whats a shame. but i still have 2 questions:

Does Arabia/Ottomans/germany only have their new ability?????????????????

will thir come more DLCs?????????????????
 
I missed this on my first read. Does this mean all existing units will get the benefit from building. If so, does that mean my empire only needs these buildings in one city to have my entire empire benefit from it?

No, barracks etc. only gave XP to land units. Now airplanes and ships get the XP as well. At least that's my guess.

@Gali: Very good post. Best summary of the patch I've read so far. :goodjob:
 
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