June/July Patch Notes

[ArcaneSeraph]

In Civ5, there were very few options before, and I'm failing to see all those new possibilities some say this patch would bring. Perhaps it would help if someone could give exact examples of some new valid opening strategies?

This is my point exactly. The change to SPs especially seem to have removed so many varied opening strategies. I know people say that SPs will be so easy to come by and SP costs are down and all this stuff (they seem to ignore that culture generation is also down but w/e) but no one can seem to suggest what these new strategies are. The only response you seem to get is: drop down a difficulty level then which is not an actual answer.

I know of a few that will still work well but they mostly involve now skipping the early policies completely or as quickly as possible but again most of them involve abuses that I don't find remotely enjoyable.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I like having a challenging game that I can try out various civs and strategies and see what happens.

 

[Randall Turner]

And these were only the world wonders. There are much more possible openings in Civ4 too, like an early library and creating a Great Scientist with it. In Civ5, there were very few options before, and I'm failing to see all those new possibilities some say this patch would bring. Perhaps it would help if someone could give exact examples of some new valid opening strategies?

I think the key point here that we're not emphasizing enough is early balance, ie, they nerfed opening strategies.

This is to you too, Keejus. The problem I have with the Civ 5 difficulty curve is that it's not flat - the AI has huge opening advantages. (Extra cities, techs, scouts.) Their steady-state bonuses we can deal with, but we've got to stay "close" in the beginning. This initial difficulty "hump" is also one reason we don't want to drop down to lower difficulties - the end-game becomes a cakewalk. That's no fun for me, at least.

Then, there's the flattening of the opportunity curve. To put it simply, if I can just close my eyes and click on anything (SP's, buildings etc.) and get a comparable benefit, it's also not as fun. The whole approach to beating the game at higher difficulties is specializing - finding something to give an advantage. If there are no specialization opportunities, I can't beat the AI bonuses. It's not an issue of being "smart" - there's nothing to be "smart" about.

This leads into the second problem with the difficulty mechanics - the game tends to snowball. A small advantage early turns into an insurmountable lead later. By specifically targeting early-game specialization opportunities, Firaxis is exacerbating the initial difficulty "hump" in a non-fun way, ie, again - specifically removing chances to exercise intelligence. If we drop down in difficulty and remove the "hump", it won't make the game more fun b/c we still don't have intelligent choices.

 

[kamex]

What's with the hate on Stonehenge now?

Policies are cheaper now (curve wise and number of cities wise), so dropping from 8 to 6 is just a balance pass. I'd likely suggest that 6 cpt that early (given a number of other changes) will still be solid.

I think its been sort of buffed actually due to its GE point. No Meritocracy GE means its harder to get a GE earlish in the game. And the SH GE may be spawned as you complete banking of something for a quick FP (which unless its been adjusted should now be more powerful due to 3 per city).

 

[Randall Turner]

However, the Freedom finisher means you could potentially have a 14 beaker tile towards late game, and due to the university (non rationalism) and public school nerfs, an academies seem attractive to me. A late academy tile could equal the amount of bulbs produced by a public school in a 28 pop city...

I think increasing specialist building effects (as well as the Freedom multiplier) is one of this patch's "good" decisions, and gives us something to leverage. But it (Freedom finisher particularly, though bulk GP acquisition is usually also a late game phenomenon) sure comes late.

 

[kamex]

I think increasing specialist building effects (as well as the Freedom multiplier) is one of this patch's "good" decisions, and gives us something to leverage. But it (Freedom finisher particularly, though bulk GP acquisition is usually also a late game phenomenon) sure comes late.

Completely true. Seems cool for a tall empire or OCC though! Bollywood style games comes to mind!

 

[GenjiKhan]

Perhaps it would help if someone could give exact examples of some new valid opening strategies?

Well,This might be the opening strategies with this patch:

For Tall Empires:
Tradition>Legalism>Monarchy for more money from your capital. however,we already have this strategy,but LE start was more powerful than it before this patch.

For Wide Empires:
Liberty>Citizenship>Meritocracy or Liberty>Citizenship>Representation or Liberty>Collective Rule>Republic. Before this patch, the Meritocracy start is like LE start,both are very powerful. however with the new patch,others opening strategies will have similar power of Meritocracy opening(or not).


For Domination Victory:

Honor>Warrior Code for early rush war with warriors.
Honor>Discipline>Military Caste for more cultures for your cities

By now,only Republic,Warrior Code and Military Caste opening are new valid opening strategies. I just putted the others to remember that we still have others valid openings options,but LE and Meritocracy start are just too powerful(or the others are just too weak).

And of course I didn't even say anything about buildings/wonders/units opening strategies,like beeline gl before building normal library for example.

 

[Agent Cooper]

What's with the hate on Stonehenge now?

Policies are cheaper now (curve wise and number of cities wise), so dropping from 8 to 6 is just a balance pass. I'd likely suggest that 6 cpt that early (given a number of other changes) will still be solid.

Well, the drop from 8 to 6 cpt might not seem so harrowing in itself, but in the larger context, I've grown accustomed to befriend/ally early with a cultural CS instead. With this SH nerf, that choice becomes pretty much a no-brainer.

Let's not forget that if you decide to ally the CS, that's usually +5 happiness (+4 post patch) added to the deal if they've hooked up their luxury. Possible strategic resource thrown into the deal as well? And since happiness seem nerfed in general post patch as well, you know...

That's my perspective anyway. I completely fail to understand the need to nerf wonders all over the line, +happiness wonders (by necessity) and possibly the HG excluded. This is still Civilization, right?

 

[Txurce]

I completely fail to understand the need to nerf wonders all over the line, +happiness wonders (by necessity) and possibly the HG excluded. This is still Civilization, right?

Substitute "reason" for "need" and the answer is simple: balance. If it's not right, they'll keep working away at it. Every patch so far has ultimately been viewed as a step forward overall, however large or small. I doubt this one will be the exception.

 

[elprofesor]

Cultural CS got nerfed to for early eras, don't forget it.
I'd like to come back to the time where every World Wonder gave a whoping advantage to its builder. Right now, few WWs are so impressive (Big Ben was, Hanging Gardens may be now), and they especially suffer in the ancient/classical eras, when you already have so much to do, that their cool benefits just aren't enough. Maybe it's because you can still expand while building a wonder thanks to Liberty. Maybe it's because everything is already so damn expensive, that wonders aren't that costly, relatively. Maybe I played too much Civ2
But that was already a "problem". I think that everything will turn on just right enough. There will be imbalances, but so are now, and so there are in Civ4 BTS.

 

[Randall Turner]

I'm not sure I understand. Keeping a tech lead has always been the key to winning, imo. It's just that most of us were doing it with the NC start, then making a decision later on whether to go Scholasticism, Rationalism or gold-based RA strategy. You're saying what, that RA's aren't worth it and/or they're ineffective without a strong inherent research capability?

No, what I'm saying is that you're still going to push Education with (a lot) of RAs once you have the ability to clear cheap techs. Before, alternatives to early Education were possible. Momentum strategies could go for Longswords, Chivalry or Rifling. An Arab player could go for Currency.

Now, you will get left so far behind in so rapidly if you delay Education/Renaissance that it does not appear to make sense to do anything else.
circumstances.

Now wait a minute. You're saying "no", then essentially going on to say "we need education", ie, an inherent research capability is vital. Which is fine, I think I agree (for different values of "agree"), I'm just trying to understand your point and make sure you're not referring to some sneaky education-related wonder exploit or some such.

 

[MoonFlare]

Why no bug fixes? Bugs don't disappear by themselves!

 

[joyous_gard]

I don't like how they keep changing the game's rules. There are a lot of changes here and I don't understand what it's all about. Here, play a new game. City attack doesn't carry over on upgrade? Why the hell not? How was that ever a problem? Not looking forward to the rule changes. They should have done something else to make changes. It feels like the human player is getting most of the nerf.

 

[elprofesor]

When they say city attack, they mean the bonuses of catapults/trebuchets/cannons, which were kept after upgrade for some insane city attack artillery (+30% strength against cities for an already game changing unit?). The same applies to the other "proms" that don't upgrade anymore, they are talking about those linked to a kind of unit, not the xp proms.

 

[Txurce]

Well the hanging gardens giving 10 extra food per turn in all of your cities so early on in the game is vastly going to speed up growth, making basically every aspect of your game far stronger. Having so much extra growth so early on is going to do wonders for your production, gold and science, which means you're probably going to be a runaway. At this stage of the game you'll probably have 2 cities. +5 food per turn for your first two cities is massive. Can't you remember how OP maritime CSs were before they were nerfed? The hanging gardens are far more OP even than this.

The cultural bonus for stonehenge has now been reduced by 25%. This is just a matter of opinion, but I think that this means it isn't worth those essential early hammers anymore; it is too dull to bother with.

Pyramids are now completely useless. The early worker is nothing compared to the effective doubling of workers for the entire game that you get from the halving of their time to complete stuff. Lets assume that the pyramids take 30 turns to complete. Let's assume that workers take 12 turns to complete. That means that the effective time taken for the pyramids to complete is 18 turns. 18 turns early-game for only 25% less worker construction speed just doesn't seem worth it to me. The long-value has been halved, and initially is was still a good question whether to build it.

And not building early wonders at all, or even considering them, to me makes the game far duller. Hanging gardens are already taken by the AI very early as well, so you're not likely to get this, and it shouldn't be included in the state it is anyway.

I think all of your predictions are premature, and seem to have little context.

1. Build the HG and you will have to deal with happiness issues. It may still become a preferred early strat, but it's not likely to become the balance-breaking one you predict.

2. As has been pointed out elsewhere, Stonehenge has been balanced because of the changes to SP's. It's more likely to have been OP had it been left alone. As to finding it "too dull to bother with"...

3. The TBC mod has had Pyramids at 25% for quite a while now - it's probably where the devs got the idea (as well several others). It's not a must-have GW, but it most definitely gets built. To call it "completely useless" is hyperbole.

4. Early wonders are possibly more worth building than ever. They just work in concert with SP's and improvements. Again, it's a matter of context. The game has become more complicated for the average player to do well.

 

[MadDjinn]

I think its been sort of buffed actually due to its GE point. No Meritocracy GE means its harder to get a GE earlish in the game. And the SH GE may be spawned as you complete banking of something for a quick FP (which unless its been adjusted should now be more powerful due to 3 per city).

Well, the drop from 8 to 6 cpt might not seem so harrowing in itself, but in the larger context, I've grown accustomed to befriend/ally early with a cultural CS instead. With this SH nerf, that choice becomes pretty much a no-brainer.

Let's not forget that if you decide to ally the CS, that's usually +5 happiness (+4 post patch) added to the deal if they've hooked up their luxury. Possible strategic resource thrown into the deal as well? And since happiness seem nerfed in general post patch as well, you know...

This answered itself along the way. GE points are good. 6cpt from Stonehenge mixed with lower Cultural CS output means it will still be good to get. a drop of 2 isn't that bad. Tie it to Piety/Reformation and you get back to 8 cpt. (as well as +33% to whatever culture base you have) Which is likely part of the reason for the 2 point drop. You get the Wonder bonus earlier (though Constitution still adds 2 culture to a city with a wonder) which means more longer term culture.

Why no bug fixes? Bugs don't disappear by themselves!

I have a feeling we'll see some bug fixes start to appear closer to the patch date. There are still some very obvious ones, policy wise and other, that need a fix.

 

[MadDjinn]

I think all of your predictions are premature, and seem to have little context.

3. The TBC mod has had Pyramids at 25% for quite a while now - it's probably where the devs got the idea (as well several others). It's not a must-have GW, but it most definitely gets built. To call it "completely useless" is hyperbole.

4. Early wonders are possibly more worth building than ever. They just work in concert with SP's and improvements. Again, it's a matter of context. The game has become more complicated for the average player to do well.

I agree.

Though, the pyramids are nerfed both in their bonus, but as well in the fact that the 'long' improvement time issues are also reduced. So most improvements are a bit faster.

What does that mean? Add Liberty->Citizenship with the Pyramids and you get two free workers (great for a REx as you focus on settler production) and will only need to build 1 worker/2 cities instead of 1w/1c. They will be efficient enough to get more improvements done faster == better economy == better everything else.

Since the AI rarely grabs the Pyramids early, it'll be useful. Not to mention that you might have to go to Construction earlier than pre-patch for coliseums, so it's there if you need it. And well, stone is the new 'sheep' and opens at Masonry as well. --- I know it'll replace cows, but cows are for food, sheep are for production.

 

[joyous_gard]

When they say city attack, they mean the bonuses of catapults/trebuchets/cannons, which were kept after upgrade for some insane city attack artillery (+30% strength against cities for an already game changing unit?). The same applies to the other "proms" that don't upgrade anymore, they are talking about those linked to a kind of unit, not the xp proms.

sweet thanks

 

[Agent Cooper]

This answered itself along the way. GE points are good. 6cpt from Stonehenge mixed with lower Cultural CS output means it will still be good to get. a drop of 2 isn't that bad. Tie it to Piety/Reformation and you get back to 8 cpt. (as well as +33% to whatever culture base you have) Which is likely part of the reason for the 2 point drop. You get the Wonder bonus earlier (though Constitution still adds 2 culture to a city with a wonder) which means more longer term culture.

This might be completely spot on, but the greater point I tried to make was: if the players in general feels that a substantial number of the wonders in the game, no longer can hold their own, they see no reason to build them.

They don't consider it as a package deal meaning; 'that wonder might be ok if I match it with these SPs and add a synergy effect with this building etc. They look at that shining wonders abilities/traits and make a judgement call whether this is worth the massive hammer cost or not.

These buildings are called 'wonders' for a reason...

On another note... has anyone confirmed whether the Great Library has lost it's free tech or not? If it has in exchange for a free library, I'll risk the wrath of Txurce and label it as truly useless...

 

[Txurce]

This might be completely spot on, but the greater point I tried to make was: if the players in general feels that a substantial number of the wonders in the game, no longer can hold their own, they see no reason to build them.

They don't consider it as a package deal meaning; 'that wonder might be ok if I match it with these SPs and add a synergy effect with this building etc. They look at that shining wonders abilities/traits and make a judgement call whether this is worth the massive hammer cost or not.

These buildings are called 'wonders' for a reason...

On another note... has anyone confirmed whether the Great Library has lost it's free tech or not? If it has in exchange for a free library, I'll risk the wrath of Txurce and label it as truly useless...

1. It seems like GW's (like the rest of the game) are now meant to work as part of "package deals." Better players will optimize them by doing just that. Players on the other end of the spectrum are casual enough that they won't worry about hammer costs - they'll just try to build the GW's they like. You are probably right in saying that some intermediate players want to play optimally, but don't want to do the extra work the new patch will require. This is a version of Martin's argument that the patch needlessly turns off some of the dedicated player base. I think it's worth the disgruntlement, but acknowledge the price paid.

2. At this early stage, if one GW were to be labeled truly useless, it might very well be the GL. How's that?

 

[Martin Alvito]

Now wait a minute. You're saying "no", then essentially going on to say "we need education", ie, an inherent research capability is vital. Which is fine, I think I agree (for different values of "agree"), I'm just trying to understand your point and make sure you're not referring to some sneaky education-related wonder exploit or some such.

The problem is the comparative decrease in RA efficiency for alternative strategies.

Getting Rationalism and the Porcelain Tower under the new rule set doubles the value of Research Agreements directly. Increasing your production capabilities via Universities also increases the value of Research Agreements indirectly, by raising the median value of the techs you will have researched thirty turns later.

Under the present rule set, increasing production capabilities increases the value of Research Agreements indirectly by opening up more expensive techs, but there isn't also a doubling in the efficiency of RAs from taking the Education line. The result is that taking a momentum or economic line rather than Education isn't penalized in as heavily now as it will be post-patch.

The other thing to notice is that pushing back the National College also penalizes momentum strategies; at Writing it permitted a momentum player to stay more or less level in Science with the Education player until the completion of a second wave of RAs. That's now going to be impossible.

In short, toning down the Longsword rush was necessary, but this wasn't the way to go about it.

Though, I'm thinking this RA mechanic will be just as easy to 'exploit' as the last one. Mix GS bulbs into the mix and you can get access to high beaker cost techs which will then drag the median tech value up, thereby giving you a much better RA choice; especially after getting the Porcelain Tower (still useful to hit Renaissance early) and open up Rationalism.

Exactly. You're right that you don't have to blow away every cheap tech; you research them on an as-needed basis to push the median over breakpoints. But increasing raw production earlier will enable you to push the median further and faster.

As elprofesor points out, the median system is better than a mean system, because the aggregate effects of pushing deep beelines start to add up after a while under a mean system.