June/July Patch Notes

[MadDjinn]

This might be completely spot on, but the greater point I tried to make was: if the players in general feels that a substantial number of the wonders in the game, no longer can hold their own, they see no reason to build them.

They don't consider it as a package deal meaning; 'that wonder might be ok if I match it with these SPs and add a synergy effect with this building etc. They look at that shining wonders abilities/traits and make a judgement call whether this is worth the massive hammer cost or not.

These buildings are called 'wonders' for a reason...

sure, but if 'players in general' don't know what they are doing in a game: enter your personal favourite RTFM/get a clue statement here. (though, don't read the manual since it's been horribly out of date for some time)

Anywhom, if you don't think a wonder is worth building, then don't build it. It's your game, and if you think it now sucks, but don't expand your view to include the mechanics around the wonder, that's your issue and your game will suffer for it.

This isn't pong. The game has overlapping mechanics that need some understanding. Sure, right now, I can't tell you if dropping it by two cpt is 'balance' or if it's still as good as before, but once the patch comes out, I'll find that out. That's why my game won't suffer.

On another note... has anyone confirmed whether the Great Library has lost it's free tech or not? If it has in exchange for a free library, I'll risk the wrath of Txurce and label it as truly useless...

not yet. the question has been posed to 2kGreg and we're waiting for a response (tomorrow afternoon likely the earliest time).

 

[Stefanskantine]

Nice changes, especially the rebalancing of SPs. Although I still feel they didn't buff Autocracy enough to compete with the other 2.

 

[Agent Cooper]

1. It seems like GW's (like the rest of the game) are now meant to work as part of "package deals." Better players will optimize them by doing just that. Players on the other end of the spectrum are casual enough that they won't worry about hammer costs - they'll just try to build the GW's they like. You are probably right in saying that some intermediate players want to play optimally, but don't want to do the extra work the new patch will require. This is a version of Martin's argument that the patch needlessly turns off some of the dedicated player base. I think it's worth the disgruntlement, but acknowledge the price paid.

Just to clarify - by 'players' i didn't mean to say all players, but as you also point out, some segments of them/us.

My brother plays CiV as well, but he's a typical casual gamer. CiV and Age of Empires. He's not into all these nerd discussions we have going at this forum, doesn't play by fixed, optimized strategies designed from learning from 100s of hours of play. I think he's a warlord or prince player. He has 4 kids (I have 1) and not much time for playing as it is.

I'm a bit worried that he will be put off by the game, when pretty much everything he's grown accustomed to, changes overnight. I just don't think he'll bother with starting from scratch again. He'll try it for a bit, perhaps lower the difficulty, but just come to the conclusion that he hasn't got the time and there's always Age Of Empires..

Also, this patch sends a message from the developers to the players, that the next patch might likewise make huge changes to the game, so why bother with learning new strategies, getting familiar with the new updates etc., if everything changes again the next time?

Sorry for the long rant...

2. At this early stage, if one GW were to be labeled truly useless, it might very well be the GL. How's that?

 

[Randall Turner]

Under the present rule set, increasing production capabilities increases the value of Research Agreements indirectly by opening up more expensive techs, but there isn't also a doubling in the efficiency of RAs from taking the Education line. The result is that taking a momentum or economic line rather than Education isn't penalized in as heavily now as it will be post-patch.

Okay. Couple quibbles though. You're linking Education to the improved RA efficiency, but it's actually linked to the Porcelain Tower (situational) and Rationalism (completely separate thing, ie, Renaissance - can be opened up through the standard Gunpowder path, right?) You were throwing me off by specifically picking Education, which implies direct research.

I understand the new modifiers, ie...

The only subtle part is that it "stacks". That's a new mechanic, ie, that the Porcelain Tower and Rationalism SP can modify RA output.

Porcelain Tower and Rationalism just got more powerful.

I'm not sure if (for instance) Scholasticism + RA's might not be the preferred approach for a player who's "lagging" in tech even just a little bit (and has a "wide" base, ie, good economy). (Not sure b/c it's unclear to me how tight money is going to be.) The "lagging" part is relevant b/c it's been my experience that the AI targets the Porcelain Tower even now - unless I've a Great Engineer standing by, a few turns head-start usually means the AI gets it. (Though now it's got a "persistent" effect, meaning it's worth trying to steal.)

To be clear, I also believe Education (and inherent research capability) will be more important than it was. But, I'm not 100% certain yet.

 

[apocalypse105]

I wonder why nobody mentioned that they didnt fixed the problem when you liberate an AI that it hates you It was one problem that most people agreed that that was a major problem.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Okay. Couple quibbles though. You're linking Education to the improved RA efficiency, but it's actually linked to the Porcelain Tower (situational) and Rationalism (completely separate thing, ie, Renaissance - can be opened up through the standard Gunpowder path, right?) You were throwing me off by specifically picking Education, which implies direct research.

The Porcelain Tower won't be situational (in SP). Because so much of your aggregate production comes from RAs, that ability confers a massive global boost. The only question is how best to achieve it. Yes, you could wait for an AI to build it and steal it, but that choice assumes a ton of risk.

As far as the Renaissance is concerned, when was the last time you got there by a path other than Astronomy? I've done it by Rifle Rush with Babylon, but I can't think of any other sensible cases. Scholasticism is good on Deity, but it isn't that good.

 

[turtlefang]

There seems to be too many changes to determine how the game will play out. I have some concerns from the point of someone who can only play a few hours per week:

1) happiness will become an even bigger issue that it is now given these changes. It's the number one issue I face, and I play on King level, so I'm not a top tier player. Just don't have time to get to that level.

2) Some of the changes to the building seem arbitrary - such as reducing the factory bonus. On the surface, it doesn't look like it will make it worthwhile to invest in a factory that requires a coal resource - or the windmill.

3) It looks like I'm the only one who doesn't like the reduction of the Mech Inf from mvt from 4 to 3 - I think this will slow the game down in the end phases.

4) I would like to see the GG mvt increase to 3 or even 4 or 5 so that he could keep up with the fastest unit on the battlefield.

5) On Epic and Marathon, I hope they scale the gold for Germany and Ottomans in capturing barb camps.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

Scholatism isn't that good on Deity? Seriously? I don't think I've ever lost a game that has lasted a decent amount of turns on (meaning no early rush that I wasn't ready for) when I went for scholatism early. It easily can provide you with far more than you can generate early on and even later still 500+ beakers a turn. I mean yes it isn't as powerful as the completely unbalanced RA system that doesn't mean it isn't very, very good.

 

[Randall Turner]

The Porcelain Tower won't be situational (in SP). Because so much of your aggregate production comes from RAs, that ability confers a massive global boost. The only question is how best to achieve it. Yes, you could wait for an AI to build it and steal it, but that choice assumes a ton of risk.

As far as the Renaissance is concerned, when was the last time you got there by a path other than Astronomy? I've done it by Rifle Rush with Babylon, but I can't think of any other sensible cases. Scholasticism is good on Deity, but it isn't that good.

We just have trouble communicating, Martin.

By "situational", I mean it's not guaranteed. Which is why I went into the whole "AI beating us to it" spiel. Of course we want to build it, but whether we can or not is, well, situational. (I suspect the Porcelain Tower will turn out to be one of the, if not the, most critical Wonder post-patch.)

Yep, the most common way I get to Renaissance is through Astronomy, and yep, the other common way is through Gunpowder on the way to Rifling. But the key point stands - it's the Renaissance and Rationalism that affects RA efficiency, however you get there. Edit: it's "sensible" to take a land-based path when you're playing Pangea with a strong Songhai barb-hunting setup that's already scouted the entire world, for instance. Not remarkably uncommon.

Let's drop this. I just wanted to understand your train of thought, and again, I don't disagree with it, it was just couched ambiguously.

 

[seasnake]

I wonder if more notes will be announced, I'm hoping to hear a few of these:

-- England: Ships start with 15 XP
-- AI: Liberated Civs don't hate you for conquering their capital city

 

[apocalypse105]

I wonder if more notes will be announced, I'm hoping to hear a few of these:

-- AI: Liberated Civs don't hate you for conquering their capital city

OMG i didn't thinx about that maybe they forget about the liberate part and you get a permament negatif modifier for liberating a civ whahaha why should you bother to liberate it then?

 

[MadDjinn]

The Porcelain Tower won't be situational (in SP). Because so much of your aggregate production comes from RAs, that ability confers a massive global boost. The only question is how best to achieve it. Yes, you could wait for an AI to build it and steal it, but that choice assumes a ton of risk.

As far as the Renaissance is concerned, when was the last time you got there by a path other than Astronomy? I've done it by Rifle Rush with Babylon, but I can't think of any other sensible cases. Scholasticism is good on Deity, but it isn't that good.

We just have trouble communicating, Martin.

By "situational", I mean it's not guaranteed. Which is why I went into the whole "AI beating us to it" spiel. Of course we want to build it, but whether we can or not is, well, situational. (I suspect the Porcelain Tower will turn out to be one of the, if not the, most critical Wonder post-patch.)

Yep, the most common way I get to Renaissance is through Astronomy, and yep, the other common way is through Gunpowder on the way to Rifling. But the key point stands - it's the Renaissance and Rationalism that affects RA efficiency, however you get there. Edit: it's "sensible" to take a land-based path when you're playing Pangea with a strong Songhai barb-hunting setup that's already scouted the entire world, for instance. Not remarkably uncommon.

Let's drop this. I just wanted to understand your train of thought, and again, I don't disagree with it, it was just couched ambiguously.

I say: Hagia Sophia converts to Porcelain Tower perfectly.

More generally -

Decided to put some thought into the tech strategies for the VCs as well as some general tech thoughts.

find it here

 

[Shadow717]

Don't mean to drag this off topic, but I've got a small question about hotseat. How many human players can use it at once? It isn't limited to two palyers is it? I never played civ4 so I don't know what the hotseat was like in that, and therefor have nothing to make an assumption off of. I'm really hoping that it can go up to at least 4 players. Be fun to get 3 friends and just watch some movies while trading off my laptop for our turns. And having only two human players doesn't really leave much room for any alliances or co-operation, I imagine it would just turn into a head to head war, with the occasional AI nuisance.

 

[Txurce]

Don't mean to drag this off topic, but I've got a small question about hotseat. How many human players can use it at once? It isn't limited to two palyers is it? I never played civ4 so I don't know what the hotseat was like in that, and therefor have nothing to make an assumption off of. I'm really hoping that it can go up to at least 4 players. Be fun to get 3 friends and just watch some movies while trading off my laptop for our turns. And having only two human players doesn't really leave much room for any alliances or co-operation, I imagine it would just turn into a head to head war, with the occasional AI nuisance.

I think it's as many slots as the SP game allows.

 

[JamesCivFan]

[DIPLOMACY]

• Track trades between players and allow that to positively influence relationships (the better the deal for the AI, the stronger the modifier). Particularly useful for bribing a hostile AI.

I didn't see this mentioned before so I would like to ask anyone that managed to understand it:

Let's say that you make a deal and your relation with said AI goes to +5. That deal expires after 30 turns. On the 31st turn , you make a similar deal (trading 2 different luxuries comes to mind). So, the question is, will it get to +10 now?

And what happens if you renew the current deal that has just ended? Will the modifier get bigger as well? (again, to +10)

 

[Txurce]

[DIPLOMACY]

• Track trades between players and allow that to positively influence relationships (the better the deal for the AI, the stronger the modifier). Particularly useful for bribing a hostile AI.

I didn't see this mentioned before so I would like to ask anyone that managed to understand it:

Let's say that you make a deal and you relation with said AI goes to +5. That deal expires after 30 turns. On the 31st turn , you make a similar deal (trading 2 different luxuries comes to mind). So, the question is, will it get to +10 now?

And what happens if you renew the current deal that has just ended? Will the modifier get bigger as well? (again, to +10)

My guess is Yes, but nobody can definitively answer your questions yet, based on the information provided. The devs' statement seems to refer to selling a luxury for less than 300g, say, in order to get more diplo points than you would if selling it for full freight.

 

[Randall Turner]

I say: Hagia Sophia converts to Porcelain Tower perfectly.

More generally -

Decided to put some thought into the tech strategies for the VCs as well as some general tech thoughts.

find it here

Read your blog, I think you're more copacetic about the player's ability to keep up in technology than I am, MadDjinn. (Except perhaps for specialist civs like Babylonia?) Specifically, the patch notes didn't call out any philosophy-precursor techs as "lowered in cost", so I suspect with the AI's starting techs and extra cities we're going to be lagging a lot by the time we get there (Philosophy) no matter what we do. Edit: at higher difficulties.

The late NC build will probably help us catch up, but we will be catching up. And it's significantly later, Philosophy is nearly twice as expensive (47 vs. 89) as Writing. We'll have more research points by then, but the extra turns are going to sting.

My experience is that you must do everything you can to stay close in technology. This might mean a "forced" early war, and even if you can match the AI's bulk it's got direct research bonuses. Sorta pessimistic here. <grumble>

ps - I don't get the "Hagia Sophia converts to Porcelain Tower" thing. (And I'm not being argumentative, like with Martin, I just don't understand what you're saying.)

 

[Gali]

Hagia Sophia grants a free GP, and is on the way to education. Build Hagia Sophia grab a GE and then take PT with it. SO Hagia Sophia got you PT cheaper. Hagia Sophia is a new must wonder for me it ccan grant you a free more expensive wonder and has a decent bonus.

 

[Randall Turner]

Hagia Sophia grants a free GP, and is on the way to education. Build Hagia Sophia grab a GE and then take PT with it. SO Hagia Sophia got you PT cheaper. Hagia Sophia is a new must wonder for me it ccan grant you a free more expensive wonder and has a decent bonus.

Yep, that makes sense. That makes it a race to Theology though, which is going to be tough too. (Beating the AI to Hagia Sophia.)

Edit: already missing my Meritocracy engineer.

 

[Agent Cooper]

Hagia Sophia grants a free GP, and is on the way to education. Build Hagia Sophia grab a GE and then take PT with it. SO Hagia Sophia got you PT cheaper. Hagia Sophia is a new must wonder for me it ccan grant you a free more expensive wonder and has a decent bonus.

No...no... shhhhh. If the devs learn about this, it'll just get nerfed before patch release