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[GS] June Update Tier List

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Jewelrunna, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Indeed, once people start strawmanning it's probably for the best if they just move on. Everything I've said has been entirely self-consistent - I never once claimed that AIs don't attack city states, I pointed out that they do so with much less frequency. There's a pretty substantial difference between the old city state massacres and situations where numerous city states survive for entire games surrounded by AI civs. In my last game, for instance, I noticed three city states that didn't survive the game (a fourth was apparently conquered and liberated) on a Standard map. Every other survived, four of them surrounded by AI civs.

    Yes, I did note that I may not be aware of formula faith strategies, in the context that it wasn't clear to me why Georgia is any better than it used to be (the original point being that Georgia is now somehow better than it was, due to more efficient walls). That wasn't an aside from the main topic of the thread, and it still hasn't been clarified how Georgia is particularly advantaged.

    Pointing out that suzerainty is useful is the aside, and not something I ever disputed. That just moves the discussion from Georgia needing to do a lot of work to get faith to Georgia needing to do a lot of work to get an advantage from its envoys - as now you not only need a specific strategy to obtain Apadana and scout out all the city-states, you also need to do so while pursuing religion and being able to both spread it to and keep it in every city state. If it works, sure you'll probably eventually have a few more envoys than anyone else, but that translates to a few extra +2 to +4 production bonuses that have cost you a huge amount of production, slots and faith to get. My point was never that Georgia couldn't get more envoys than other civs, but that other civs could get enough for their needs without that much work.
     
  2. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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  3. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Sorry, I should show more appreciation for the fact that English isn't everyone's first language here. I presume that the sections you quoted are supposed to demonstrate some kind of inconsistency, but if that's the intent there's evidently a comprehension difficulty due either language barriers (but I've had the sense that you're fluent in English) or your unfamiliarity with my phrasing style. In either case that seems to defeat the point of continuing since you seem to be arguing against things I haven't said or intended to imply, but in a final effort to help you understand what I've been saying:

    With the first set of quotes I'm rather drawing a blank - I find it difficult to understand how these could have been misinterpreted as the first two say almost exactly the same thing. The third was just a comparison with other civs; extra envoys that take a fair bit of work are a weaker bonus than other civs can offer, particularly in the context of the tools other civs have to get additional envoys. I'm not talking about being weaker in terms of the specific bonus (such as suggesting other civs can obtain more envoys), I'm pointing out that extra envoys are a weaker gameplay bonus than such things as free builders, boosted early Wonder production, or free relics. Georgia's position in the tier list suggests this should not be a controversial opinion.

    Again the second triptych is entirely consistent, and the third line is even taken from my comment pointing that out. Possibly we're working from different baselines, so to put those comments into context I'm comparing with pre-patch games when half a dozen or more city-states would be captured in the first 50 turns as a routine occurrence. Four city-states being lost over the course of a 250 turn game is very much a sign of reduced AI aggression, and the surviving CSes aren't necessarily ones that are in areas the AI can't easily get to as was previously the case.

    Possibly the first sentence of the third section was worded poorly on my part, but in context I'd thought it was clear that the 6 referred to the number needed to get the full set of bonuses from a single city state, not a total across all city-states, so it has no bearing on the third. The second doesn't seem relevant to either of the other lines as it was a comment on your specific Apadana strategy.
     
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  4. Troy Bruckner

    Troy Bruckner Prince

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    I just played Spain for really the first time besides some horrible starts in the past and they don't deserve to be on the bottom. Their mission is huge and can be placed adjacent to multiple missions. Build cities on a different continent build a holy site and ring it with missions. I am wondering if they can go toe to toe with Krussia for faith build if I planned for it.
     
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  5. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    You’re all over the page and in an effort to not fire back with equal insults, I’ll try to be brief. You’ve gone back on forth on suzerainty being and not being a minor bonus. Suzerainty is powerful and should be pursued within reason over as many city states as possible, for many reasons, though you’ve admitted to not ever particularly subscribing to this in theory or in practice. Georgia has a bonus in this regard that few other civs have (despite your earlier statement to the contrary), which is the crux of this present discussion. It is an easy argument that an envoy boost is more beneficial in a plethora of situations than a variety of other civ bonuses. You also significantly over exaggerate the difficulty and cost/benefit of pursuing a religion and beginning faith accumulation in the short term while ignoring the benefits in the long term, particularly for Georgia which is a religion & faith-based civ despite your insistence to the contrary. You go on to make a poor argument that early AI vs City State eliminations having declined is a problem for Georgia, despite Protectorate Wars not being available until the Renaissance, the same time you can build faith-generating Tsikhes to benefit further from the double faith bonus of declaring a Protectorate War. In this regard, this actually significantly benefits Georgia, as not only will Georgia have had time to explore, discover, and spread religion to states to assist in becoming suzerain over more than most, but more City States will survive to the point where Georgia can actually declare a Protectorate War. You even cite an example where a full 1/3 of states were eliminated (not counting any that were warred upon but survived, thus would still have been eligible for Protectorates). That’s a lot of opportunity for Georgia. And to be clear, you don’t necessarily need to actually participate in the war, you just have to declare it, thus the defensive walls vs offensive war argument you made is misplaced.

    Is Georgia’s kit the best? No. Is it as bad as you say it is? Certainly not in the hands of players who understand it and play to its design strengths.
     
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  6. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Once again, deliberately or otherwise this is a straw man. I've never made any claim that suzerainty is a 'minor bonus' - I've said that Georgia's relative advantage in *obtaining suzerainty* is minor. I just started a session where, thanks to Diplomatic League and natural eurekas, I had 11 envoys across all CSes I'd encountered, and suzerainty with nearly half of them, by the time I was in a position to start spreading religion to them, and only one was a first-contact free envoy. I also ignored the Apadana route. Envoys aren't a resource that scales well - +X envoys are of far less value past a certain point than +X food, gold, faith etc. Georgia doesn't get its extra envoys early enough for the bonus to be at its most powerful (exactly as is also the case for its walls and its faith bonus). Georgia's bonus is also something that can be relatively easily replicated by certain strategies and options - the double envoy for converting a city state belief isn't identical, but is similarly powerful at the game stage when you want to be first converting cities. In that, it's similar to the Khmer holy site culture bomb. You can't replicate, even approximately, Eagle Warriors, Nubian production discounts, Chinese builder charges or the like.

    This could certainly be the route of an interesting discussion if you focus on this element rather than attacking things that weren't said. Once again, though, my contention is that the cost to Georgia to pursue this relative to the benefit they provide relative to other civs makes it substantially less attractive. "Free" stuff always looks good taken out of the context in which you get that free stuff.

    This may be a difficulty level issue, and civs certainly differ in value across difficulties. Your strategy to pursue Wonders (which I find unreliable, and not least because it's far from a given that you'll get a starting location/good production city spot with sufficient choppable features) and experience with city state invasions suggests you may play below Deity - I accidentally started a session without changing the default difficulty level and city states started falling earlier than I've become used to - I believe they don't start with walls at lower difficulties (as an aside, it's an indictment of Civ VI difficulty that I couldn't even tell I was on a lower difficulty until I saved the session). Religion needs to be rushed at Deity, so it's a very definite investment that can't really be justified unless you plan on building a strategy around it.

    It's a civ that wants to play as a religious civ, I've never disputed. I've pointed out that unlike other religious civs, like Khmer, Arabia etc., it doesn't have any benefits that help it get a religion, make holy sites useful early districts in their own right, or that have any particular synergy with specific religious beliefs.

    As for the long-term benefits, to quantify these let's suppose we have a fairly typical 10-city empire fairly late on a Standard map with 12 city states (assume all survive). A normal civ might have suzerainty over half of these; let's say Georgia has all of them with the maximum bonuses.

    So, by this game stage we have an extra +12 production in the capital, and an extra +24 in districts, split across four resource types and - in the case of production - production types. That's up to +240 across those resources, but will in actuality be somewhat lower because not every city will have every associated district type and this figure 'double-counts' production - if we assume we have a near-equal distribution of city states we can expect at least two militaristic states and two industrial, so we can deduct -2 capital production and -40 district production from that hypothetical total.

    So, we have a situation where we - eventually - get somewhere in the region of +10/+100-200 more than other civs, but for that we've had to invest heavily in faith and likely production into extra districts and buildings that we may not otherwise have had. That could still be good, as part of the civ's ability suite - but the remainder of the civ doesn't provide any reliable resource bonuses, except for Renaissance Walls that you wouldn't normally want to build anyway so represent an extra production deficit (though acting as sewers mitigates this somewhat). This is actually an optimistic scenario for Georgia, since I would fully expect as an average civ to have more than half the desirable city states, and some will have been destroyed/captured, and civs that preferentially focus on suzerainty with civics, beliefs or Apadana will certainly have more.

    Of course this ignores the suzerain bonuses that Georgia will obtain from having suzerainty over everyone, but the value of these is going to be highly variable.

    Early city state eliminations have declined because the AI isn't attacking the city-states frequently in the first place, not because they're better at surviving - when it attacks them it takes them fairly easily. The reason this is an issue is that you can't declare a protectorate war if you aren't having CSes attacked - I see the protectorate war cassus belli rather rarely. Often the ones that die, as in my example, are taken out long before you're able to declare protectorate wars.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  7. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    2 for 1 envoys is not a minor bonus, so I'll just stop you right there.

    You're going to cry that Georgia, a religious civ, getting this bonus for actually setting up and executing a religious strategy, makes it bad, in which case you'd just further demonstrate your ignorance so don't bother.
     
  8. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    That depends very much on whether it's taking your envoys from 2 to 4 or from 6 to 12 - my point is that envoys scale poorly, and Georgia's ability to get excess envoys comes closer to the latter than the former most of the time. Of course that assumes no one's competing for that specific city-state, but similarly your argument has assumed that no one's switching the city-state's religion. Even granting it, you still need to address the scenario that results as quantified in my example: in an optimal situation for Georgia in which they get about twice as many city-states as any civ not actively pursuing city-states would, the overall benefits are at best moderate by the game stage in which you're getting them given the effort invested, *in comparison to civs that get assorted bonuses for free*.

    Sorry, I've been as patient as I can in giving you the benefit of the doubt but it's clear at this point that for whatever reason your continuing misrepresentation of what I've said and removal of comments from context is deliberate rather than a well-intentioned misunderstanding. We're done - if you need to feel satisfaction from feeling you've won a pointless forum argument about where in the lower tiers of Civ Georgia belongs, be my guest.
     
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  9. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    Until and unless you are the uncontested suzerain of every city state on the map, regardless of which city states those are, 2 for 1 envoys is not a minor bonus. It's worth it for the diplo points alone.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
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  10. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    Just did a Deity religious victory for Georgia and had forgotten about her leader ability. The normal bonus doubling up on golden/heroic ages is practically tailor built for a religious victory pursuit. I used a normal Classical dedication for Exodus of the Evangelists and started spreading, this got me a Golden Medieval for another Exodus, this time giving me +2 movement and +2 charges along with a newly converted +4 prophet points which now grant faith, along with continuing to grant +2 era score for converting cities, so I was propelled into a Golden Renaissance and again chose Exodus, and together with a promoted Moshka it was pretty much gg. The game ended in a religious victory before the Industrial.

    This was all standard settings on a small Deity Pangea map with random opponents. I note there was only one religious CS (Jerusalem) which, after converting, the double-envoy bonus proved instrumental in maintaining control over a greedy Egypt, and compiling the bonuses to continue to spam Apostles helped against a Sumeria that tried to keep converting it back. I was able to suzerain 3 other CS's with little effort and no particular need other than to deny them from my opposition. The diplo point accrual helped me gain significantly favorable trades.

    I won so relatively early (age/civic-wise..I'm not going for any records here) that I was only afforded the opportunity for one Protectorate War, which I actually declined because it would have put me at war with one of the last Civs I was going after to convert.

    ((If you're at all interested in any specifics of this game, though I doubt it, my opponents ended up being Sumeria, Macedon, Egypt, France, and Japan. Jap, Sumer, and Egypt took the first three religions. I secured some land then beat Macedon to the final religion, and was able to take Choral Music and Holy Order, with Religious Settlements pantheon. I finished off the beliefs with Tithe and Stupas. Forward settling Egypt early made an enemy that surprise warred but religious combat converted their cities and gave me favorable relations with Macedon, who I convinced to join in. I friended Sumeria right away when I met him and this maintained the friendship despite grievances from converting him. Macedon, Sumeria, and a very late meet with France maintained friendships and towards the end, alliances. Japan and Egypt remained pissed at me the whole game. Japan maintained twice my faith generation. I built only Holy Sites > Commercial Hubs > Entertainment districts.))
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  11. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    You guys should probably agree to disagree. :p
     
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  12. stefanos85

    stefanos85 Chieftain

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  13. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    I strongly disagree with the above chart. Even if you're going generalize this way the top tier is meaningless when it has so many civs. I'm also not sure why you love Fred and hate Chandragupta, as well as a number of other details.
     
  14. BTSeven7

    BTSeven7 Chieftain

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    I have some more constructive discussion...

    How to people do well with Monty on higher difficulties? I am terrible at using the Eagle Warriors it seems, and they are obsolete before I can do anything useful aside from defending myself. The amenities can be useful but I find it’s so easy to trade diplo for luxuries it doesn’t matter that much. Maybe I need a larger empire and they can sustain one better?

    I feel like the Mapuche +10 against civs in a golden age means you can roll one of your neighbors with swordsman on turn 40 and sit on it for an easy cultural victory.

    Kongo is such a GWAM and great merchant factory I could never imagine not walking away with a cultural victory with them. It’s pretty easy.

    Ghangis Khan feels nearly broken with his Calvary bonus against the AI. I can take half the map every game with knights.

    I don’t play every civ enough to know who is dominate but those 3 stand out as really easy every game for me.

    A lot of people consider Cyrus awesome. What’s the strategy that makes him so strong? I hardly play with them.
     
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  15. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    I agree with you... Germany certainly sticks out like a sore thumb amidst the upper most tier. Just the stupid Hansa district is by FAR insufficient to make them always very strong...

    Esp. when you compare with China (situationally strong but otherwise average?) Sure... if by "situational" he means that there are games where you don't produce builders or don't bother with eurekas and inspirations. Germany is actually bottom tier with the likes of Khmer. Same goes with Cree.... otherwise average? Are there games where you do not build their super early unique improvement? Are there games where you don't use any trade routes and so don't get free tiles in 3rd ring super quickly? How are their bonuses situational in anyway?

    Sweden, Kongo situational? I would drop Brazil down from this tier and move these 3 up. It's not situational when your (very strong) bonuses are pretty much guaranteed. Is there anything in the game that prevents you from building theatre squares? (and commercial hubs for Kongo)? If a civ relies on a certain particular wonder to work then I agree it's situational, but that's not the case here (even without oracle you should get great people just fine).

    Brazil's bonus is situational in that it depends on your start bias working, otherwise you have an extremely crappy civ. Eleanor you can argue is situational because her ability to flip depends on the spawn location being close enough to AI.

    Dido is certainly bottom tier--yes, she has bonuses, but they are crappy bonuses. Such that even in situations where her bonus works. it is still crappy. Poland as well actually--you rely on the Mt St. Michel wonder or Kandy so you can generate enough relics for the extra yields. Her UU is nice but cannot be prebuilt so executing its rush effectively means you focus on early culture rather than science.
     
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  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Germany doesn't need the Hansa to be good. I mean maybe not the best but not below average. They can build 3 districts in cities and this is helpful in poor starts. Military polciies are for whatever reason underrated; there's pretty much 1 military policy besides conscription that you usually want at most times during the game.
     
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  17. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    Well, the most obvious is that all units get +2 movement for 10 turns when Cyrus declares a surprise war, which you can do at any time for any reason. That alone makes him an excellent war monger. His unique, the immortal, has both a ranged and a melee attack. That means it can reduce a city without getting injured. It can also (1on1) defeat other units of the era because it doesn't take damage when it attacks, unless you want to melee. They're an extremely good unit even without the +2 movement. This makes Cyrus one of the best war-mongers in the game. The paradaisa (unique improvement) gives you culture and gold early, generates tourism after flight and raises the appeal of nearby tiles which can result in a lot of strong seaside resorts for a very strong culture victory. You also get +2 gold and +1 culture from internal trade routes, as well as a free trade route slot at Political Philosophy. Persia's huge military advantages are augmented by a very strong economy and the potential to generate a ton of culture. The only thing they don't do well is RV.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
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  18. Troy Bruckner

    Troy Bruckner Prince

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    I play almost exclusively on marathon with huge maps on emp level or higher. I also limit my wars with the Ai unless they attack me or take a vital CS in which case it's no mercy. Marathon speed is nice because your units to not have to be upgraded every few turns.

    Poland is strong for setting up trade networks and when things get crowded she can steal territory and convert cities to her majority religion easily. Winged Hussars used correctly can control the battlefield. Also they unlock through culture, so if you play like I do with heavy culture and make do with whatever science you get passively then they are a godsend. With this said they are solid middle of the pack.

    The extra district available in every city is huge. If Germany has a high production low food start they can still get a government center built along with a holy site.

    Brazil can drop down some serious bonuses on districts especially Holy Sites. The ability to put lumber mills on rain forests really helped them out. They are a solid B or higher for their tier.

    Eleanor's ability is cute and fun once, but even going balls out on the Theater districts and buildings she lags way behind in culture when compared to Greece and Russia. Also if Russia is in the game with her she is hosed. I should also say I feel the game code does some serious voodoo magic with how cities flip to her. I saw a city starting to flip to me early in the game so I moved 4 artworks in range after it started to flip and then 2 turns later it was still without a governor, had not grown in side, the religion had not changed, but it was at full loyalty. It's like my pieces of art had the opposite affect that they should have.

    I like to park my eagle warriors next to an opposing unit and fortify letting the Ai attack me until my counter attack is enough to kill it. The trick is not killing it on defense. Sometimes this means fortifying on a flat tile with no defensive bonuses instead of an adjacent hill and or forest.
     
  19. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    If I made a tier list here, I'd probably be sanctioned with blasphemy since my ratings would be based on Small Continents.
     
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  20. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    I don't know about your thoughts on Germany... in addition to the pretty strong Hansa district, they get an extra district per city outside of the normal district/population limits, and an extra military card. Those are enormous bonuses that last the entire game and enhance playstyles and strategies that every civ would employ on every play through.
     

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