[GS] June Update Tier List

[lotrmith]

Agreed. Especially if there was a caveat that people must vote based on the assumption of no warmongering, though that might make some like Alexander hard to evaluate.

I expect that players would consider the average game experience, which means some coast, some land, some city states, some peaceful civs, some warlike civs, etc.

I play mostly multiplayer nowadays (singleplayer zzz) so I get the full gamut of the playstyles, and it's worth noting that by and large the universal bans are sumeria, nubia, macedon, scythia, and korea (aka the early powerhouses and the science king). Nobody plays Monty because the eagle warrior is too slow. Gilga, Sumer, Scythia, and Macedon all have high movement speed ancient units that absolutely crush (scythia being regular horses 2 for 1, their horse archers are relatively bad). And Korea, which can be using crossbows against your warriors and nukes against your swordsmen.


Also safe to say the average user experience is Prince but it's reasonable to analyze at, say, Emperor. But Deity analysis drives me nuts, personally.

 

[kb27787]

and what are they to do with a CV? They are pretty shiny pebbles to lead you astray. When you can get 3-4 themed art museums before you have to pay 1600 for a single archaeologist.
Its a question of style I guess.

If you already get 3-4 artists (720 to 960 GA points--you can do the math) and still are not at natural history then I wonder where you have been spending your culture.
With golden age dedication, they are only 680 faith with theocracy... and worth 3 era score each to boot.
You need to buy SOMETHING with all that relic faith eventually... why wait for rock bands when most likely you would win before then?

And 1600 gold upfront is rather child's play compared to all that relic/mbanza gold he gets...

 

[Victoria]

If you already get 3-4 artists (720 to 960 GA points--you can do the math) and still are not at natural history then I wonder where you have been spending your culture.

You missed the point. 3-4 artists before humanism

 

[kb27787]

You missed the point. 3-4 artists before humanism

Same logic... Unless you have Bologna I really don't see how you can get that many artists while having so low culture you have just reached humanism. That's a lot of GPP with very little culture generated which does not quite make sense to me. Amphitheaters do not generate GA points... So you are stuck with 1.5 or 1.8 GA points/city. Say 10 cities you have at least 40 turns after drama and poetry unlocked (not to mention turns needed to build the theatres) to get 720 pts for 3 artists.

How you cannot reach humanism during that time is inconceivable esp if you get all those books in the meantime. Unless you really really intentionally avoid that civic path.

In practice I reach natural history at around 2 artists earned.

 

[Victoria]

That's a lot of GPP with very little culture generated

I am saying Humanism at T110 & projects. I never once said I had low culture.
If you are getting 2 artists without projects just how low is you culture?

 

[kb27787]

I am saying Humanism at T110 & projects. I never once said I had low culture.
If you are getting 2 artists without projects just how low is you culture?

Right. So you have 3 artists already at t110?
Projects also generate bulk culture so the numbers still do not add up.
My point being that you cannot help but generate culture if you generate GA points such that it is impossible that you get that many artists while still not having most of the earlier part of the civics tree researched.

On the flip side it's very easy to get tons of culture and not a single artist due to things such as Moais or Antananarivo and Russia being in the game (such that you are stuck with a 610 GPP artist due to the re-tarded increased cost before their era mechanism... Ever seen a 1045 GPP great musician in the renaissance? )
I have had games where I fail to get the inspiration for humanism before I already finished researching it due to that.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Here, I will create a list nobody will like. In order to prevent anyone from getting hurt because I think their pet civ sucks, I have removed all the letters. But I assure you, there really aren't any bad choices and like 3/4 of the civs are good (well, maybe Freleanor) Ultimately, peaceful domination is a meme, because we are talking about tier lists and any game where you have the time to grab cities like that is one that has already ended a long time ago. On the other hand, England is now a good civ thanks to their iron deposits and warmongering + easy loyalty flipping is very good, so yes, I say to Elenaor of England is the superior choice and yes I've thought this even when everyone including me was poo-poo'ing England. Really, she does everything better than her French counterpart besides build some wonders faster. If you look more clearly, France is actually a terrible civ that is upheld solely by Catherine's UA. Remember, the Chateau is even worse than before!

Also Egypt is sick and should really be higher. I just had bad RNG and never got floods.

The first 2-3 tiers of civs are civs that I think are capable of completely shutting down their opposition in the area of choice unless met against.... another civ that I'd consider top tier. For example, if Korea goes science, you're not going science. If Russia goes faith, good luck competing with him, etc.Civs below that aren't necessarily weak or anything, they just don't have the oppressive grasp that what in my mind are top civs have. For example, Sweden is great at cultural victories and can easily get nice wins if the opposition is weak. But if Kongo/Russia/Greece show up, then Sweden just gets smacked into irrelevancy and Georgia is probably a better pick in that situation....

Now it is true I prefer civs that are more well rounded. Russia doesn't NEED tundra, nor does Sumeria need to go to war early. As a result, I would never rate any civ with purely war bonuses that high simply because the wheel comes off if you can't go to war. The thing is, nearly everyone and their dog has some bonus to military.... so even something as consistent as Spain's bonus isn't even that special. However, it also means that civs without war bonuses at all are also pretty gimped in a sense, and I don't consider those top tier either. Basically, for every reroll you need to do for a civ to get that perfect win, I drop them a tier. But then again, is that perfect Georgia map where you start near 5 CS's (one of them being Kandy) really an invalid game? Well, only you can really decide that on your own, regardless of what plebs on the internet think.

 

[Victoria]

Have you ever wondered why GA are so much worse than artefacts? There must be a reason why. Because you can get the tourism much earlier than artefacts if you do it right.

Right. So you have 3 artists already at t110?

Yep

Projects also generate bulk culture so the numbers still do not add up.

No, project create 15% of the production used as culture, not huge amounts, as opposed the GPP points

My point being that you cannot help but generate culture if you generate GA points such that it is impossible that you get that many artists while still not having most of the earlier part of the civics tree researched.

“Impossible” Ok well there ya go, I am useless at CV’s know little and am lying, let’s leave it at that.

 

[Archon_Wing]

No, project create 15% of the production used as culture, not huge amounts, as opposed the GPP points

Actually that brings up a good question. Are you running theater projects all the time to crank out artists, even if you lack GW space?

 

[Victoria]

Actually that brings up a good question. Are you running theater projects all the time to crank out artists, even if you lack GW space?

They nerfed GW, it is hard to win fast with just GW now. So where do you get other tourism fast?
I have Apadana and GL and even a bank due to Kongo, all with GW but need some more tourism. Yes it’s dull but One needs to try and understand a CV well if one wants to talk about it.
And yes even with all those GW slots you run out... without using Oracle.

 

[kb27787]

Here, I will create a list nobody will like. In order to prevent anyone from getting hurt because I think their pet civ sucks, I have removed all the letters. But I assure you, there really aren't any bad choices and like 3/4 of the civs are good (well, maybe Freleanor) Ultimately, peaceful domination is a meme, because we are talking about tier lists and any game where you have the time to grab cities like that is one that has already ended a long time ago. On the other hand, England is now a good civ thanks to their iron deposits and warmongering + easy loyalty flipping is very good, so yes, I say to Elenaor of England is the superior choice and yes I've thought this even when everyone including me was poo-poo'ing England. Really, she does everything better than her French counterpart besides build some wonders faster. If you look more clearly, France is actually a terrible civ that is upheld solely by Catherine's UA. Remember, the Chateau is even worse than before!

Also Egypt is sick and should really be higher. I just had bad RNG and never got floods.

The first 2-3 tiers of civs are civs that I think are capable of completely shutting down their opposition in the area of choice unless met against.... another civ that I'd consider top tier. For example, if Korea goes science, you're not going science. If Russia goes faith, good luck competing with him, etc.Civs below that aren't necessarily weak or anything, they just don't have the oppressive grasp that what in my mind are top civs have. For example, Sweden is great at cultural victories and can easily get nice wins if the opposition is weak. But if Kongo/Russia/Greece show up, then Sweden just gets smacked into irrelevancy and Georgia is probably a better pick in that situation....

Now it is true I prefer civs that are more well rounded. Russia doesn't NEED tundra, nor does Sumeria need to go to war early. As a result, I would never rate any civ with purely war bonuses that high simply because the wheel comes off if you can't go to war. The thing is, nearly everyone and their dog has some bonus to military.... so even something as consistent as Spain's bonus isn't even that special. However, it also means that civs without war bonuses at all are also pretty gimped in a sense, and I don't consider those top tier either. Basically, for every reroll you need to do for a civ to get that perfect win, I drop them a tier. But then again, is that perfect Georgia map where you start near 5 CS's (one of them being Kandy) really an invalid game? Well, only you can really decide that on your own, regardless of what plebs on the internet think.

France is better than England for me simply because river bias is so much nicer than coastal bias. Obviously this does not apply to maps where everyone is forced to go coastal such as archipelago.

Germany needs to drop down 2-3 tiers though.

 

[kb27787]

They nerfed GW, it is hard to win fast with just GW now. So where do you get other tourism fast?
I have Apadana and GL and even a bank due to Kongo, all with GW but need some more tourism. Yes it’s dull but One needs to try and understand a CV well if one wants to talk about it.
And yes even with all those GW slots you run out... without using Oracle.

Relics and Basils cathedral my good friend... Kongo is made exactly for that. 16 tourism per relic wins you the game rather than the other works. Arts and artifacts are just icing on the cake, and books are mostly for getting you to those wonders necessary for the combo earlier.

 

[Victoria]

France is better than England for me simply because river bias is so much nicer than coastal bias

France Eleanor can spam wonders and win a CV in a non standard way very fast.

16 tourism per relic

......as I said I know nothing and lets leave it there my good friend

 

[Archon_Wing]

France is better than England for me simply because river bias is so much nicer than coastal bias.

Yea I consider the coastal bias a negative. But you could just move away from it. Yes, it's a disadvantage but it's not uncommon anyways.

Also, doesn't England have an Iron bias now? I think that makes up for anything.

Germany needs to drop down 2-3 tiers though.

No.

 

[kb27787]

France Eleanor can spam wonders and win a CV in a non standard way very fast.


......as I said I know nothing and lets leave it there my good friend

View attachment 531526View attachment 531527

Basil doubles it to 16... Basil and reliquaries makes it 32...

 

[Victoria]

Basil doubles it to 16... Basil and reliquaries makes it 32...

Fair enough but regardless I now know why your CV’s and getting to humanism take a lot longer.

 

[kb27787]

Fair enough but regardless I now know why your CV’s and getting to humanism take a lot longer.

Ummm if I take longer to get to humanism wouldn't it mean I had more time to earn artists before it completes?
Actually the more culture per turn you have, the less great ppl you get before you hit certain civics because you do it in less time.

Hence a player who's only had 1 artist when he reached humanism most likely made more culture each turn than one who had 3 when the same civic milestone was reached. For example games in which I have Antananarivo I get humanism before my first artist because you fly through the civics tree.

 

[Victoria]

Projects

 

[kb27787]

Projects

Hmm... Wasn't it you in the other thread who pointed out that Kongo gets only half GPP from projects? Anyway I'm mostly still working on amphitheaters and commercial hubs with markets to get at least 7 routes in my cities (your capital of course is busy with wonders) by the time humanism rolls around. Not sure how much the projects give you in return for the production invested.

 

[Archon_Wing]

They nerfed GW, it is hard to win fast with just GW now. So where do you get other tourism fast?

I wish I knew. Lately I've just been focusing more on faith to rush parks and Rock Bands but I feel there are better ideas. When I go for relics/ Mt.Michel, it never ends wel and sometimes the AI won't even kill my religious units.... making me regret I didn't go for RV.

I have Apadana and GL and even a bank due to Kongo, all with GW but need some more tourism. Yes it’s dull but One needs to try and understand a CV well if one wants to talk about it.

Despite going CV in most of my game I acutally don't understand it very well. So I guess it is projects.

And yes even with all those GW slots you run out... without using Oracle.

Does that mean I should maybe not pay that much attention to Oracle?