Just what exactly is a flip-flopper?

[bhsup]

Back in August of 2004, I, along with 70% of my fellow Missourians, voted to ban same-sex marriages in Missouri. Since that time 7 1/2 years ago, my views on this have changed. While I still do not personally approve of homosexual behavior (*), I don't think it is the State's place to interfere.

So, if I were running for President today, would the democrats of this great land of ours accuse me of being a flip-flopper because I have changed my position on this? My position is about as 180 as you can get on a sensitive social subject. Surely that is a flip-flop is it not? But I somehow doubt the DNC would be running ads tryng to shame me for flip-flopping on this issue.

(*) Oddly, I am far more understanding of lesbian couples than I am of male-homosexual (and hey why isn't there a specific word for THAT like there is for female-homosexuals) couples... but I honestly think that's because I like women so I can understand a woman liking another woman....

NOTE: This thread is about flip-flopping, not gay rights and I want to keep it that way. I only used that topic because it was an example of an issue that I have changed my mind about and thus fits in the flip-flopping discussing. If you cannot participate without trying to turn this thread into a soap-box for gay rights posturing, just stay out of it

 

[amadeus]

Did your beliefs change because of the way you felt or because you thought you could get more votes? The flip-flopper is the latter case.

 

[bhsup]

So then you'd be needing evidence of changing views just to get more votes, else the flip-flopper charge has no foundation.

 

[Core Imposter]

As I oppose same sex marriage I would charge you with flip flopping or whatever else I could think of to destroy your reputation. Of course.

If on the other hand you had evolved from the sinful position of supporting that shameful practice I would embrace the prodigal.

This has nothing to do with being objective or fair, it is a battle of good versus evil.

All we are interested in here is the word "marriage". No one cares what people do in their private lives so long as the state is not allowed to infringe on our freedom of religion.

 

[Smellincoffee]

While I still do not personally approve of homosexual behavior (*), I don't think it is the State's place to interfere.

And relatedly, not your place to interfere. But we've had that discussion before.

"Flip-flopper" can be a useful description of a politician who tries to be all things to all people, altering his response to please different audiences because s/he is attempting to gather votes across a spectrum. The term is abused, though, to refer to a politician who alters his or her stance on any issue: they're branded as unreliable or untrustworthy. This is woefully unfair to people who hear a respectable argument or encounter evidence that compels them to change their mind. While 'traditionalists' might praise a politician who has kept the same views his entire life, I'm more liable to think that person an absolute ignoramus. There is no chance of anyone being so wise, so in command of the facts, that their views shouldn't change and mature as they grow older.

 

[Integral]

Personally,
- a person may be accused of "flip-flopping" when they change their position, explicitly or implicitly, in order to gain votes; or, if you are a private citizen, the equivalent would be changing your beliefs to suit the company you are in, for the purpose of being accepted by that company.

 

[Cutlass]

Any reasonable person should have some beliefs that evolve over time as they mature and gain new information. That's not flip-flopping. If, on the other hand, you are pitching different versions of yourself and different positions to different audiences for the purpose of gaining their support, then you are a flip flopper.

 

[classical_hero]

Some who wears these, aka flip-flops in Aussie slang.

 

[useless]

doesn't matter etc

 

[bhsup]

NOTE: This thread is about flip-flopping, not gay rights and I want to keep it that way. I only used that topic because it was an example of an issue that I have changed my mind about and thus fits in the flip-flopping discussing. If you cannot participate without trying to turn this thread into a soap-box for gay rights posturing, just stay out of it

This has nothing to do with being objective or fair, it is a battle of good versus evil.

So gay marriage is evil..?

Two consenting adults who love each other, who want to get married = evil?

Please see first quoted entry.

 

[useless]

Please see first quoted entry.

fine whatever dude i'll edit out my post

 

[Silurian]

VRWCAgent you are not a flip flopper.

As amedeus noted

Did your beliefs change because of the way you felt or because you thought you could get more votes? The flip-flopper is the latter case.

If you were to change back you would still not be a flip flopper as long as it was a considered process.

As far as I am aware you are not standing for office, but as a left of centre person if I was voting for a member of small town council in western Missouri I would definitely consider you. (State or National government would be a different thing)
By changing your views, over time, you demonstrate an ability to change due to experience. I think this is valuable.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Is this thread specifically about flip-flopping (an American, political and negative word), or is it about the moral integrity in changing views over time? People mature and mature into perversion..

It seems the second poster got it right about flip-flopping.

 

[Traitorfish]

(*) Oddly, I am far more understanding of lesbian couples than I am of male-homosexual (and hey why isn't there a specific word for THAT like there is for female-homosexuals) couples... but I honestly think that's because I like women so I can understand a woman liking another woman....

(Completely missing the point of the thread, but there actually is, "Uranians", another Classical reference. It just never caught on, for whatever reason.)

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Politicians get accused of it if they change their positions on the issues.

Some get tagged with the flip-flop label (Kerry, Romney) while others who are just as guilty (Bush, Obama) get away with it. There's really no rhyme or reason for why the narrative is different for some.

 

[Earthling]

Did your beliefs change because of the way you felt or because you thought you could get more votes? The flip-flopper is the latter case.

This succinctly says it all, that's how it should be called in politics. Rarely would it be helpful to use the term when not describing political figures and issues. I'd also say it's been overused just to sound negative whether true or not, but it still does apply to some politicians.

 

[Antilogic]

Pretty much agree with the consensus here. The flip-flopper has "changed" his or her views not because they have matured or otherwise had experiences that cause their opinion to evolve, but it's perceived to be disingenuous and for (immediate) personal gain. The charge usually implies the people charged either haven't expressed their true opinions or have expressed several contradictory ones, so you can't trust them at any time because they could just be lying for votes.



Also,

(Completely missing the point of the thread, but there actually is, "Uranians", another Classical reference. It just never caught on, for whatever reason.)

Interesting, learn something new every day.

 

[Ergo Sum]

Politicians have propagated the phrase flip-flopper to create the illusion that some politicians are not spineless, pandering hypocrites.

 

[Traitorfish]

That's an unfair generalisation. Not all of them are spineless, pandering hypocrites, some of them are stubborn, pig-headed hypocrites.

 

[Leoreth]

(Completely missing the point of the thread, but there actually is, "Uranians", another Classical reference. It just never caught on, for whatever reason.)

That's odd, especially because of the double entendre in "Uranus"