K-mod Deity Fun -- Collaboration of SGOTM teams

vranasm · Jan 31, 2014

btw one of challenges of maze map is that if you settle on wrong side of coast you won't get trade routes through sailing until you basically explore whole map around the globe

so keep in mind that you will need some roads towards north

soundjata · Jan 31, 2014

kossin said:
I think (unlikely as it seems) that we get traderoute to cities on the other side of the maze. Look at our trade group:

Tested this (in K-mod)

Case #1: we got a city (with ample culture) on both coasts, without road.
Result: No trade route connection, different colors on the trade view

Spoiler :

Case #2: same like case #1 but an AI has connected the both coasts with a road (no open border and no vision of AI city originally - they are revealed on the screenshot for better understanding)
Result: Trade route connection in our 2 cities, same color on the trade view

Spoiler :

Due to same color (see Kossin's post), we must be in the second case. No road needed

pomthom · Jan 31, 2014

Got it! Will draft a PPP tonight I think. EDIT: I will be away from Monday to Thursday next week, so I can play Sunday if we manage to agree on a PPP before then. I'll draft a PPP anyway and if it's still under discussion someone can take over?

Very well played Mitchum and very efficient test soundjata :goodjob:

(...gathering thoughts...)

vranasm · Jan 31, 2014

cough cough...this incidents happen usually when one stops reading the page at 1/2 and goes to post something really really "smart"...

soundjata · Jan 31, 2014

vranasm said:
cough cough...this incidents happen usually when one stops reading the page at 1/2 and goes to post something really really "smart"...

you are the reason why I checked :scan:

pomthom · Jan 31, 2014

A point that has not been mentioned about the Stone site is border tension. And in K-mod I wonder if that doesn't mean asking for a DoW... :dunno:

If we settle Stone now and get a DoW in the ~20 turns after settling I don't think we can do anything to stop Darius. Then again I have no idea how that will influence Darius' behaviour.

Other than my unbelievable fear of getting DoW'd :mischief:

I'm really not a big fan of the Stone spot (no food, not connected, not coastal). It claims Stone yes but what does that do for us in the immediate future? My question is this: is it worth it to "tank" our economy now to benefit from a hypothetical hammer boost when/if we decide to build Moai/OU?

Also I think we have enough food to our North to squeeze 3 cities:

We already have settler for spot A, the settler for spot B won't be that long (< 20 turns) and that will be enough to block. Actually I'm not entirely sure it couldn't be interesting to go TW > Myst > Pottery because chopping a Monument in spot A could be quicker than settler 2 and would enable us to claim the ocean Fish.

What're your thoughts yo?

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 31, 2014

Might be time to consider how to get Machinery for Cho-Ko-Nus early enough to really leverage their power. Otherwise, why bother to play a Chinese leader?

After Pottery, Metal Casting may be a move in this direction.

Not sure whether a great wonder providing Great Engineer points makes sense for bulbing Machinery.

Sun Tzu Wu

pomthom · Jan 31, 2014

@STW if we land the GLH there's a good chance our first GP will be a GM, bulbing MC might be an option

Duckweed · Jan 31, 2014

pomthom said:
A point that has not been mentioned about the Stone site is border tension. And in K-mod I wonder if that doesn't mean asking for a DoW...

If we settle Stone now and get a DoW in the ~20 turns after settling I don't think we can do anything to stop Darius. Then again I have no idea how that will influence Darius' behaviour.

The settlement of stone site is not enough to turn us into Darius' LT. Therefore, not much effect.

Other than my unbelievable fear of getting DoW'd I'm really not a big fan of the Stone spot (no food, not connected, not coastal). It claims Stone yes but what does that do for us in the immediate future? My question is this: is it worth it to "tank" our economy now to benefit from a hypothetical hammer boost when/if we decide to build Moai/OU?

A rare resource like stone would be able to trade us ~10g from rich deity AI, enough to pay for an extra city. Plus this city is not totally garbage, each grassland farm provides 2 hpt when whipping units.

Also I think we have enough food to our North to squeeze 3 cities:

We already have settler for spot A, the settler for spot B won't be that long (< 20 turns) and that will be enough to block. Actually I'm not entirely sure it couldn't be interesting to go TW > Myst > Pottery because chopping a Monument in spot A could be quicker than settler 2 and would enable us to claim the ocean Fish.

What're your thoughts yo?

GSs is an important part of deity research. 2 strong GP farms could pump out GSs faster than 3 mediocre cities. Less cities with the same resources are usually better than more cities. Capital could use a granary immediately after GLH.

pomthom · Jan 31, 2014

PPP: first quick draft

Tech

Finish TW (3 turns - just enough treasury)
Pottery?

Beijing

Grow on GLH to size 6 (since Gold will be roaded in time: should we grow as fast as possible by working the GL farm or should we work the GL mine for more raw prod? will try to put numbers)
3-pop whip settler
Finish GLH (inch allah)

Shanghai

Finish Worker (3 turns)
Finish Archer (2 turns)
Work Boat? for exploration

Settler 1

Settle blocking city, team needs to rule on the site (DW advocates 1NE of Stone, Mitchum/pomthom are not entirely on board - yet )

Worker 1

Follows Settler 1?

Worker 2

Road Gold
Chop FPH 2E of Beijing
Road between Beijing and Shanghai?

soundjata · Jan 31, 2014

I agree that a blocking (Stone) city is better than another city.
We need to explore what's in the south. There could be silver / marble.

Folket · Feb 1, 2014

I'm with pomthom.

If we do not make the stone city coastal it will take forever to get the stone. If we make it coastal it won't block Darius.

I would prefer us to settle pomthoms A, B, C in that order.

Folket · Feb 1, 2014

An alternative is to settle on top of stone or 1E and get mystisism and chop a monument.

Also we might whip out one more settler before the GLH is finished.

soundjata · Feb 1, 2014

What is there to block anyways? As long as our settler #3 is ready to settle pig/fish before Darius does, I think we can settle stone anywhere (on the stone for example)

pomthom · Feb 1, 2014

soundjata said:
What is there to block anyways? As long as our settler #3 is ready to settle pig/fish before Darius does, I think we can settle stone anywhere (on the stone for example)

The risk is that Darius moves in to sette double Fish + Pigs... But yeah we should have a settler ready by then. I'll try to evaluate in how many turn we get another settler and maybe we can decide from there (I have a lot less problems with settling Stone if it's coastal)

Mitchum · Feb 1, 2014

Duckweed said:
GSs is an important part of deity research. 2 strong GP farms could pump out GSs faster than 3 mediocre cities. Less cities with the same resources are usually better than more cities.

This sounds like an argument to change cities A, B and C into only two cities. I'm fine either way but with the GLH each coastal city is a net positive to our economy so I'm slightly leaning toward settling all three cities.

Regarding a stone city, I'd be much happier if it were coastal to benefit from the GLH + get the stone. It could then at least build a LH and work coastal tile for commerce. I don't have the game open right now but won't we have to either chain irrigate farms all the way from the capital or is there a river over there?

Regardless of where we settle, I think putting our settlers in place but not settling them just yet as has been already suggested is the way to go. That will give us time to connect the cities. We'll have to be sure that we can see all tiles that would allow Darius to sneak in a settler and plant some city that spoils our settling plans.

Depending on where we send our settler, there may be nothing for worker #1 to do. The only tiles that we can currently improve are corn, copper and stone. So depending on where we settle, worker 1 can either a) start roading toward said city location or b) continue chopping to make getting the GLH more secure... especially if we plan to use worker 2 to road the gold before chopping.

We should estimate our GLH date now so that we can judge how safe we feel about it. There doesn't appear to be a ton of production on this map script so it may take the AI a while to build it... I'm not sure though.

Duckweed · Feb 1, 2014

Mitchum said:
This sounds like an argument to change cities A, B and C into only two cities. I'm fine either way but with the GLH each coastal city is a net positive to our economy so I'm slightly leaning toward settling all three cities.

GLH gives 4C for each coastal city, it's enough to support 3rd city which costs ~5g in the beginning, probably barely enough for 4th city, pretty sure that 5th city would be a sink to the economy. If we want an extra city to be of some help, we need to invest an extra settler 1st, then all those infrastructures to mature the city. Therefore, without grabbing new resources, an extra city is usually a waste. The rare exception would be helpful city to grow the capital cottages when capital has abundant food resources to share.

Regarding a stone city, I'd be much happier if it were coastal to benefit from the GLH + get the stone. It could then at least build a LH and work coastal tile for commerce. I don't have the game open right now but won't we have to either chain irrigate farms all the way from the capital or is there a river over there?

It's an awkward situation, but between the safety of blocking and better site, I choose the former. Before we can chain irrigate the tiles, let's consider it a self-support city (from the stone) providing a little help, such as producing workers. For both proposal of 3 cities, I don't see many advantages of abandoning stone site, the only advantage is easier to defense due to shorter distance from capital.

Regardless of where we settle, I think putting our settlers in place but not settling them just yet as has been already suggested is the way to go. That will give us time to connect the cities. We'll have to be sure that we can see all tiles that would allow Darius to sneak in a settler and plant some city that spoils our settling plans.

That's what I suggested.

Depending on where we send our settler, there may be nothing for worker #1 to do. The only tiles that we can currently improve are corn, copper and stone. So depending on where we settle, worker 1 can either a) start roading toward said city location or b) continue chopping to make getting the GLH more secure... especially if we plan to use worker 2 to road the gold before chopping.

Worker1 can do a couple more chops to speedup GLH. If worker2 roads the gold before chopping, we'll delay GLH by 1~2 turns with the gain of 4 worker turns. The choice for me is clear, I don't gamble something big for small.

We should estimate our GLH date now so that we can judge how safe we feel about it. There doesn't appear to be a ton of production on this map script so it may take the AI a while to build it... I'm not sure though.

Considering how fast that DG grabbed 2 wonders, I don't feel GLH to be safe now. AI still have at least 3 hills in capital. Our chance relies on whether and when AIs decide to go for GLH.

Folket · Feb 1, 2014

Yes, let us chop out our GLH at once.

pomthom · Feb 2, 2014

A. GLH timing

Spoiler :

I simulated several micro approaches to try and determine what was the earliest GLH date, while still growing to 3-pop whip an other settler.

Inserting a Settler whip:

It's not possible to grow to size 6 earlier than turn 68
Most micro scenarii land a turn 69 GLH

Conslusion: inserting an other 3-pop Settler whip will delay the GLH (2 turns)

Emphasizing raw hammers:

Emphasizing raw does not allow us to land an earlier GLH (turn 69)
1 particular micro scenario does make it possible to have a turn 69 GLH and still save a BFC forest

Conslusion: emphasizing raw hammers can save a BFC forest at the price of stalled growth for the same GLH date

Spoiler micro to save a forest (no whip) :

Food before hammers (my prefered scenario)

Working the Farm @ size 4+ does not delay GLH (turn 69) with 3 chops
This micro allows for a whipped Settler to land turn 71

Conslusion: balanced approach, this simple micro allows a turn 69 GLH while growing to size 6 (followed by a turn 71 Settler)

Spoiler grow to size 6 :

Inserting a Settler whip

Inserting a 3-pop Settler whip gets an earlier Settler (turn 70) but delays GLH (turn 71)
A BFC forest can be saved

Conslusion: inserting an 3-pop Settler allows an earlier Settler (1 turn) and saves a BFC forest for a turn 71 GLH

Spoiler settler whip insert :

------------------------

I hope I covered most micro scenarii, I'm really good at not seeing the obvious approaches... :hammer2:

------------------------

B. City dot-mapping

I believe this might be a reasonable compromise:

Current Settler moves on the Stone and waits for a Darius settling party

If settling party arrives while the rest of our Northern resources are not blocked we settle 1NE of Stone
Settle other spots

If no settling party has arrived by the time our resources are blocked, settle the Stone by the coast (on the Stone or 1E of Stone)

Duckweed said:
GLH gives 4C for each coastal city, it's enough to support 3rd city which costs ~5g in the beginning, probably barely enough for 4th city, pretty sure that 5th city would be a sink to the economy. If we want an extra city to be of some help, we need to invest an extra settler 1st, then all those infrastructures to mature the city. Therefore, without grabbing new resources, an extra city is usually a waste. The rare exception would be helpful city to grow the capital cottages when capital has abundant food resources to share.

The 5th city might not entirely pay for itself but I think it's marginal and the increased production (more cities = more :hammers:

, also 3rd city enables to improve Copper right away instead of waiting a border pop) makes up for that no problem. With 3 cities we still have 2 that share five 6* :food:

tiles... I really don't think keeping the Sugar to a 3rd city will prevent us from getting out all the GSs we need :dunno:

We can also wait for Currency before settling city C...

------------------------

I'm leaving for a few days tomorrow until Thursday and I probably won't have any Civ/CFC time, so if someone wants to take over the PPP I'm totally fine with it!

Or you can discuss and I'll play as soon as I come back!

Duckweed · Feb 2, 2014

A. GLH

As I mentioned in post#217, if you let worker2 chop before road, we could land GLH 1 turn earlier.

B. City

Let's divide this issue into 2 parts.

1. The GP. The strength of a strong GP farm partially come from its faster growth, but more important, from the multipliers. It's common that we could run CS with pacifism, or even better with NE as well. Therefore, if we settle the site with 2 Fish + 1 Pig, that's 2 more specialists than your proposed site B, with pacifism, it's 12 GPP or 18 GPP with NE.

2. The investment vs return. No matter how crappy a site is, with enough infrastructures, it will be a net gain in all aspects. However, how long will it becomes beneficial and be able to pay for its investment? -- a precious early settler is only the initial investment. We have more choices (pretty clear that the arm with the wheat is available for us) waiting for limited settlers. Therefore, the economical cost from the extra site won't be the maintenance fee from 5th city, but 7th or even 10th city if there are more sites from the west and south.

I think 4 days are longer enough to finish a set, so if Folket has time in the next few days, you are UP then.

Edit: Time to reserve some spaces in the SGOTM thread before you leave.

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