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K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

Discussion in 'Civ 4 - K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword' started by karadoc, Jan 8, 2011.

  1. ScorpionWasp

    ScorpionWasp Chieftain

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    I'm not worried about my changes interfering substantially with K-Mod. They're mostly balance changes to game breaking elements such as Roman Praetorians (seriously, an ancient era unit with a base strength of 8, that receives defensive bonuses, costs 45 shields and remains cost effective all the way into the Renaissance? What were they thinking???), or purely cosmetic stuff like custom music.

    What I'm worried about, is the Better AI Mod interfering with K-Mod's proper operation. But I might be worrying about nothing, since K-mod is based on Better AI, and they share almost all of the same files.

    (If memory serves, it was the Better AI Mod itself that recommended this installation method, rewriting the original game files. I stand absolved! /fail)
     
  2. Zholef

    Zholef Warlord

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    It will likely work, meaning it will likely be playable. If it won't, the mod will likely not even load. Such speculation is pointless however as you can safely test this by installing K-Mod as a mod, i.e. into the "Mods" directory.
     
  3. ScorpionWasp

    ScorpionWasp Chieftain

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    Yeah, it does load. However, "proper operation" goes beyond just loading and not doing anything immediately suspicious. Someone with intimate technical knowledge of how the mod was made and interacts with the other files could give me a definite "There's zero risk of the game, like, reading part of its instructions from Better AI, and then part from K-Mod, resulting in AI settlers thinking they're attack submarines and mounted units only attacking spearmen. That's because the very last version of Better AI was used as the basis, and thus every file that needs to be modified in K-mod was. Alternatively, you can disable Better AI entirely by renaming root file "XYZ.ini", which effectively prevents any code from Better AI from loading."
     
  4. Zholef

    Zholef Warlord

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    Not necessarily. I happen to have intimate, if incomplete, technical knowledge of that and I won't, and I expect others won't either, give you the type of answer you seem to want. K-Mod makes further changes to both the dll and python files, and especially given that you have made other unspecified changes to your base game, you can't expect anyone to give you that kind of a guaranty. Not to mention that you really only want to avoid cleaning up your broken game installation. Why use your own time, when you can waste that of others, right?
     
  5. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Get together all the files you modified in your installation directory (both with copying BBAI and after that with your own modding), and make a mod out of it. You can even put extra files in, if you are unsure about the origin of some.
    I find it highly unlikely that BBAI and K-mod works together the way you described it, there are too many files modified by both of them.
     
  6. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    how can they work together? these are two separate mods, plus kmod takes bbai and improved it 180 degrees.
    its like trying to drive a Ferrari with wheels of a carriage, it ant and no logic in doing it :)
    sorry if i came out a bit strong.
     
  7. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Yeah, I would definitely advise him to have a clean install of Civ IV.
    Then he can have both his old files as his own mod and K-mod separately.
     
  8. lietkynes

    lietkynes Hello sword !

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    It just occurred to me that I have been playing this mod for YEARS and I never stopped by to say thanks.

    Amazing work, keep it up !!
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    There are a couple of factors at play with something like this.

    It's true that the most important aspect is the cost/benefit analysis, which is not entirely the same as laziness or incompetence. You can't really use AI in marketing (or rather, you can just put some boilerplate like "The AI will react dynamically to player action" in your press releases and its fine no matter the actual content). Everyone can lie about their AI, until the game is out nobody is there to verify it. On the other hand, extensive new feature lists, shiny graphics and new content (playable civs and the like) can get people excited early on. Unless there is the rare massive backlash as with No Man's Sky, early hype is much more valuable than hindsight reviews, just look at the success of Civ5 compared to its reception after release. It's just that at every point of the development cycle developers are encourage to allocate resources to things that are not AI.

    (Not to mention that being easy is apparently a plus with a large enough audience to make it an overall benefit - but that's another discussion.)

    On the other hand, I don't know how many hours karadoc has poured into K-Mod but I'm pretty sure it exceeds what your dedicated AI programmer would put into the game overall throughout its development. And K-Mod is already created on top of all the basic AI that person created. And remember that "basic AI" includes stuff like pathfinding etc. There's a lot of groundwork to be done first before you can even address something like strategic choices.

    Lastly, often what is or isn't good strategy is often not known at all, or only very late in the development process. Developers are usually not the best players, and are usually mentally stuck in a way of thinking about how the game is "supposed to" be played. The best strategies only emerge after outside people come in, and only then AI programmers could try to help the AI follow similar strategies. Especially during Civ4's time it was really hard to get large scale beta testing done, and even if you do there is little time to distill information about game strategies that is useful to developers and then have this knowledge filter down to the AI developer, assuming that person isn't currently mired in fixing all sorts of bugs that are discovered at the same time and need to be fixed before release.

    I have heard both Brian Reynolds (Civ3) and Soren Johnson (Civ4) talk about this problem at length (Jon Shafer too but he's not the sort of person I'd like to cite as my source). They know their AIs were not very good.

    If that is the case, they were either ignorant or arrogant, in any case there is never a reason to do that. I would also suggest a clean reinstall.
     
    Dumanios likes this.
  10. Sartre311

    Sartre311 Chieftain

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    If I play on emperor in standard unmodded BTS what would that same difficulty setting be like with k-mod installed? Are we talking like one level higher half a level higher or looking at it in an entirely different way than that even?
     
  11. s.bernbaum

    s.bernbaum Mostly lurking

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    Depending on how big a jump it was for you from the next level down from where you are, K-mod will be one or two levels more difficult. The AI is actually a bit of an Artificial Intelligence instead of an Artificial Idiot. It does not make the typical dumb moves that you have become used to.
     
  12. Zholef

    Zholef Warlord

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    BtS on Emperor is about as difficult as K-Mod on Monarch. K-Mod's difficulties are roughly one step up from BtS, K-Mod on Immortal being the exception because BtS on Deity is about two "steps" up from BtS on Immortal, so K-Mod on Immortal ends up between BtS on Immortal and BtS on Deity. That's my perception at least.
     
  13. Sartre311

    Sartre311 Chieftain

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    So given that it's essentially one step up from BTS unmodded do you still think it's worth playing with the mod? Is the overall gameplay just that much more enjoyable because of the balancing and decision-making of the AI on K-mod?

    Also how stable is it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  14. Zholef

    Zholef Warlord

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    I think you misunderstand what I meant by "one step up". The difficulty levels in Civ4 in general (e.g. Noble, Emperor, Immortal, ...) differ from one another by providing different handicap factors (e.g. bonuses, starting units, starting techs, ...) to human players and artificial players. Between base BtS and K-Mod, these are near identical, but playing K-Mod against AIs is more difficult because the AI plays smarter and a little more like humans would. If that doesn't sound enticing, then I don't know what will.

    Also, K-Mod has fewer bugs and runs faster than base BtS.
     
  15. Deadeyetim

    Deadeyetim Chieftain

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    So it's been a while and I was pleasantly surprised to see K-mod alive and kicking. This is a great mod and is a testament to what a small community can contribute to an unpolished turd, notably Karadoc. You give us great pleasure, and at times great angst as we scream in frustration and physically restrain ourselves from teaching the K-mod AI a lesson by pummeling his friend the LCD monitor. I am currently playing Jtanner's Krome, which I'm assuming is a merge of K-mod and Rise of Mankind. (please someone correct me if I'm mistaken). It fills in the gaps with steam ships and super spies nicely, although with all the new wonders, it is hard to catch the AI once it gets steamrolling. Never a dull moment though!!! Have any other modders fully integrated K-mod into their mods? I would really like to see an Alpha Centauri mod with K-mod, but I will settle for a well-balanced version of the original. I would also suggest to people that you change the "You refused to help us during wartime" memory decay to something reasonable in Leaderheadinfos.xml as this permits lasting friendships in the game and completely changes the dynamic of having to slaughter everyone every game. Just my $.02. Thanks again crew for enabling me to stay home and save $ by playing this great mod. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
     
  16. buck beach

    buck beach Prince

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    I am enjoying your Mod very much and while there are many features in other mods I would like to see incorporated these are only personal likes and not worth pursuing for fear they would only clog up this Mod.

    I do have an issue that may or may not be a bug. The "Score Display" power comparison ratio appears to be reversed. Throughout my game (now July 1944) I have been shown as behind most other civilizations. Now I see even the lowest total scoring other player is far ahead of me and I am behind all of them. Will somebody else please check their game to see if this seems out of wack?

    Buck
     
  17. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    This can be changed in BUG Mod Options. (While game is in progress go to Main Menu -> BUG Mod Options -> Scoreboard -> Additional Columns -> Power Ratio and there you can set the ratio to Rival vs. You or You vs. Rival.)
     
  18. buck beach

    buck beach Prince

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    Thanks, I couldn't figure out how everybody could be so far ahead of me when I was pumping out units like crazy.

    Buck
     
  19. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    I know of a few mods that have K-Mod integrated to various degrees. For example:
    Fall from Heaven 2 More Naval AI Modmod (and other FFH2 mods based on it)
    Realism Invictus (I might be wrong about this one, I haven't played it recently.)
    History Rewritten
    Fairy Tale + K-Mod
    Almost certainly there are more around.

    There is also Alpha Centauri-ish mod Planetfall (K-Mod not integrated).
     
  20. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    and my doto mod
     

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