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K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

Discussion in 'Civ 4 - K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword' started by karadoc, Jan 8, 2011.

  1. lucidstorm

    lucidstorm Chieftain

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    receiving error failed to load could not load version 303, try 302 or lower

    this happens if I exit game to desktop and try to load a save, I can load a save from the game though

    about the gameplay I must say that the AI is much better trying to attack the cities from different agles and bringing huge armies and allies, much much improved upon better bts ai

    btw. why not include the next war technologies, is kind of boring to stop at fiber optics and future tech. Next War is vanilla game for me, please at least give us an option to play next war tech,
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  2. s.bernbaum

    s.bernbaum Mostly lurking

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    Click the button in the upper left hand corner that looks like a suitcase to enter the BUG options. In regular BUG Mod, the button looks like an insect face but in K-Mod it looks like a suitcase. You won't find all of the usual BUG Mod options. Karadoc only installed some (although most) of them. (Although I don't use the keyboard command, if memory serves correctly, you can also open the BUG options by pressing alt-control-O.)
     
  3. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    In K-Mod you need to open the main menu (using the button in upper right corner next to the civilopedia) and there will be a BUG Mod Options button in the main menu.


    EDIT: Not necessarily related, but if you want to play the non-steam version of the game, it is listed as beta version in steam properties of the game and you can select it there. Steam version might interfere with mods in some weird and unknown way so I would recommend to switch back to non-steam version if you have no need for steam's multiplayer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  4. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    First check that the game really loads K-Mod (there should be "K-Mod" written in upper right corner in the game's main menu) and also you might want to try switching to non-steam version as I described in my previous post.

    EDIT:

    You can, right click Beyond the Sword in Steam, go to Properties -> Betas and select original_release_unsupported.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  5. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    Can you start normal BTS with the non-steam version? You should try deleting K-Mod and downloading it again since it seems that something is wrong with your files.
     
  6. Zholef

    Zholef Warlord

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    I think the suitcase button is disabled by default. It can be enabled on the System tab under BUG Mod Options. To get there hit the ESC key while in game. There should be a button labeled "BUG Mod Options". It should be located below the "Options" button and above the "Enter WorldBuilder" button.
     
  7. Zholef

    Zholef Warlord

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    Subscribers of this thread might be interested to know that fellow forum member AbsoluteZero (known for "let's playing" Civ 4 on Deity) recently uploaded his first foray into K-Mod on his Youtube channel.



    Edit: Only wanted to post a link, but whatever I try, this new forum software keeps converting it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
    f1rpo and AbsintheRed like this.
  8. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    Thanks for that. It's interesting to see.

    I just watched the first video, and it was kind of illuminating to me to see him complain endlessly about UI features missing the mod. The features aren't actually missing, but he apparently hasn't worked out how to turn them on; and rather than work it out or ask for help, he trash-talks the mod instead.

    I've put a fair bit of effort into the UI of K-Mod. It has the vast majority of BUG options. (The only one that people ask for which isn't there is the option to automatically interrupt chopping.) In addition to the BUG options, K-Mod has a long list of other UI options and features which are not part of BUG. Here's a sample list:
    • Right-click on any + or - slider button maximises / minimises that slider.
    • Rapid unit cycling option. (removes delay from automatic unit cycling)
    • No blind attacks (when moving into fog of war).
    • Unloading of boats with zero moves (without manually selecting the units)
    • Properly orchestrated combat animations. (animations match the actual combat events)
    • Proper descriptions in confirmation boxes
    • Fixed helps of bugs with caused incorrect information to be displayed
    • Can paradrop as a group (and similar actions)
    • Option for more intuitive group selection when using shift key... ("Simple shift selection")
    • Ability to reorder things in the construction queue without having to remove / re-add them (hold shift or ctrl).
    • Asking to make peace in the diplomacy screen brings up the AI's trade offer, rather than just automatically making peace.
    • The launch spaceship popup shows the success probability and travel time.
    The list goes on. That's just some of the stuff off the top of my head.

    What I've learnt from this video (and other similar comments I've seen from other players) is that people generally don't care about any of that stuff. The far more important thing is that people don't like change. If I change the UI so that certain features are off by default, people assume that the features don't exist. If the feature isn't right in their face, people assume it doesn't exist. And if people believe that some features are missing, then they start to assume that other features are missing as well.

    I thought it was hilarious that this youTuber assumed that the game wasn't showing him how many archers were in a stack. (He didn't check before attacking, so he didn't see that there were two. After he attacked there was just one left, and so thought it was a stack with wasn't being displayed.)

    So, what I've seen is that most people don't notice when things work right. They don't notice subtle improvements. But they do notice when things are different; and they don't like it. I've had heaps of people complain about missing BUG features - but for most of the things on the list I just posted, not one person has commented on them. I guess that explains why commercial games generally don't bother to fix or improve that kind of stuff after launch.


    (That said, I care. I've made those improvements because I want them; and if Chris67132 can't find the options menu, then that's too bad for him. I'm not going to add flashing text at the bottom of the screen explaining how to open to options menu like BUG does. That kind of stuff annoys me.)


    By the way, thank you Zholef for the translations you uploaded.
     
    Orion Pax, Soupy Delicious and jmas like this.
  9. TheOnlyDJCat

    TheOnlyDJCat Warlord

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    Hi Karadoc,
    I quote the things of your list that I really appreciate. They were great additions that I use almost every game (and start to forget that they were not part of the base game...)
    I'm also astonished how people are not able to simply open the options.
     
  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I can only second your post. I actually appreciate K-Mod's interface a lot, even coming from BUG. Especially the stuff from BUG you chose not to port over (including the automatic chop interruption).

    It's really frustrating if your exposure on social media comes from people who come in with their own biases, and do not bother to give it an objective review. But it's a good decision not to budge in the face of that kind of criticism, even though it probably doesn't look good.
     
  11. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    As much as I love K-Mod, I do believe having all the BUG-options turned off by default was a mistake. If you know how to open the options menu it doesn't take long to activate the ones you want, but apparently quite a lot of players never figure that out and just quit.

    But the problem with people simply not liking change is definitely true. And its worse with a game as old as Civ4. I think its almost impossible to get Civ4-veterans who still play without mods(except BUG/BAT/BUFFY) to truly enjoy a modded version. When they play Civ4 they want all their usual strategies to work.

    Anyways, I see v1.45 is out. Thanks Karadoc! Guess it's time for my first game of 2017! :D
     
  12. TheOnlyDJCat

    TheOnlyDJCat Warlord

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    By the way I forgot, that got at least two other exceptions before using the no exception version. One was when accepting a slavery revolt after researching broze working via the advisor dialog, an exception is thrown because research icons are rendered during anarchy (if I remember correcly)
     
  13. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    not true karadoc.

    your mod, is by far the best mod to civ ever to be made in my opinion.
    just see how many have incorporated your code into theirs.

    all the unseen changes, we know are there.
    your ui is great, all the additions, fixes and improvements, are all what makes kmod, the perfect civ4 experience there is. kmod added an unlimited expiration date on civ4 for me, civ5, 6, and probably 7, wont be as good.
    so , i wish you continue this mod, even once every 6 months, kmod is civ4 to me.
    specially also that your mod is but the few who works on mp games.

    kmod rocked my civ4 world.
     
  14. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    So I watched his first attempt and I do understand why Karadoc found that frustrating, because 90% of what he whines about is about him not actually enabling the BUG-features.

    Then he also whines about the map which was annoying. He shouldn't have picked a fractal map if he doesn't like fractal maps. That however has nothing to do with K-Mod. That's just how fractal maps work. But yeah, he didn't get a great island to start on.

    The way that game played out was almost exactly how a base-BTS game would play out (except for the ending). He really didn't get any of the "Kmod experience", but still concludes that mod sucks.

    Two things he said was lame:

    - Annoyed that begging for gold for peace isn't always accepted. Seriously? The "Beg 1 gold, get 10 turns of peace" crap is piss-poor design. I don't see any reasons why humans should have that get-out-of-jail card.

    - The red WHEOOHRN-fist. As we know, he could have turned on the red fist, but as we know Kmod doesn't always show that red fist since you need the correct diplo-level. I strongly prefer Kmod here. There's plenty of ways of getting intelligence on who's plotting. You just don't get it for free from your enemies.
     
  15. Zholef

    Zholef Warlord

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    To be fair, let's plays aren't reviews. What you're supposed to get is a "we're playing this together" feeling and he does a good job of sharing his frustration with the viewer by complaining about what he thinks are missing features. He's supposed to do that and it's also not the same as coming here to whine and demand improvements (as some people have done).

    People are stupid (even smart people). If you count on people not being stupid, you'll lose. But I don't think change is what people dislike. Adjusting to not having conveniences one has grown accustomed to is a lot more annoying than never having had them in the first place. I love the K-Mod original UI improvements and feel that annoyance every time I play a mod that doesn't have them just as much as I still yearn for the BUG+BULL features I miss in K-Mod.

    You're welcome.

    I think AbsoluteZero represents one end of a spectrum. It's not that he dislikes change, but that he is disinterested in novelty. And why would he be? Anyone who plays the base game long and intensively enough to master Deity likes the game just fine. For players like him (this is just an observation, not a judgment) fun comes from victory after overcoming difficulty. Exploiting the stupidity of the AI is what he does and basically what you have to do to beat Deity (also happens to be what drove me away from the base game after mastering Immortal). On the other end of the spectrum are people who want to be buried in new content for them to explore (C2C and RI would be examples of mods providing that).

    Of course he was annoyed about that not working... in that moment. He adjusts and keeps playing. As I said above, let's plays aren't reviews.

    Anyway, that enabling the red fist is possible in K-Mod (without further modding it) is news to me. I'd like to know how.
     
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  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah. People who like doing things like that are probably not K-Mod's target audience in the first place, which is all about getting rid of this kind of exploit.
     
  17. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    I overstated things a bit with "people don't care" etc. I'm glad to hear that people do appreciate that kind of work. And I do know that other people do notice.

    I guess I just thought it was interesting, and a bit disheartening to hear this apparently expert player declare that the mod was 'unacceptable', and that they would just endure one game and then never use it again because some UI features were not apparent. They blamed the mod for problems both real and imagined; and said nothing positive at all.

    Apparently, AbsoluteZero was of the view that K-Mod's raison d'être was to be 'harder'. They spoke a lot about where the tech was up to, and about archer rushes and things like that.

    I'm not sure how it is clear to others, but the AI in K-Mod was not designed to make the game harder. It was to make the game to be more interesting. I want the AI to make interesting choices which keep the player thinking. The AI's goal is not to destroy the human player, and they are not solely focused on war. They make decisions based on their personality and situation, and they role-play to some extent. The AI should have a coherent strategy, and each game should play out a bit differently. It's meant to be interesting and fun; strategically, tactically, and narratively. Increased difficulty was never the point. Difficulty can be adjusted with the game's difficulty settings.

    It's worth noting that a few versions ago I made changes to prevent the AI from planning super-early wars (which were only happening due to a bug anyway). The AI could crush a human player easily by declaring war as soon as they see you, while they have archers and you have a scout and a worker. But the AI's goal isn't to crush you. The AI's isn't even trying to 'win' at the start of the game. They role-play. They just want to establish their civilisation. Politics and competitiveness come later. (That reminds me, I should take a look at the "aggressive AI" setting at some point to see if it can be easily improved.)

    A lot of what I've talked about is for replay value, and so it's not surprising that AbsoluteZero didn't have positive feedback after one session. But I am a little surprised by how quickly they were to dismiss the whole thing as a waste of their time. That was interesting for me. I reckon Zholef's interpretation sounds pretty accurate though.

    --

    Regarding BUG settings, I've got a fairly long post saved on my computer which explains my choice of default settings, the exclusion of pre-chopping, and stuff like that in the context of general game design. But I think I'll save that for another time. Maybe my reasons are good, maybe not. But I've posted about it before, and currently I'm thinking it's probably not worth posting another wall of text about. The gist is that it's a combination of technical reasons and design decisions.

    As for the WHEOOHRN indicator; it's true that it is in fact disabled currently. I disabled it after changing some things which made it not work properly anymore. And I had intentions for changing more stuff which would break it further. I don't really like telegraphing the AI's intentions to the player; and so I'd generally prefer to break it than to fix it!

    These days though, it would probably work reasonably well if enabled. Of course, most of the time the AI wouldn't allow you to know if they are planning war against you; but the indicator could be used to at see when your friends were at war, or planning a war.

    To enable it, there are three things you need to do:
    • Edit Python/Screens/CvMainInterface.py.
      • Where it says `if (ScoreOpt.isShowWHEOOH() and False):` delete the "and False" part.
      • This will allow the feature to work when it is turned on.
    • Edit Python/BUG/Tabs/BugScoreOptionsTab.py.
      • Remove the # from the start of the line which says `self.addCheckbox(screen, col3, "Scores__WHEOOH")`
      • This will make the option visible in the BUG scoreboard screen.
    • Use the in-game BUG scoreboard options screen to turn it on.
      • Add the letter M to where you want the indicator to appear (next to the W is a good spot).
      • And finally, click the checkbox to turn it on.

    I'd consider bringing that stuff back, but it's still not a source of information that I want players to rely on. I'd prefer players to have to use a little bit of brain power and awareness to work out what the AI is thinking. And I want there to be an opportunity for players to be surprised or caught off-guard by things that they weren't anticipating. There's a fine line between info the player _can_ know, and info the player should have put right in front of them.
     
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  18. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    The bug ui is good, i like it, but in my mods, ive used the platypings ui, which i realy liked.

    Ai and war, personally, i prefer a warring ai, or a play to win ai, depending on victory condition.

    The ai in kmod is both challenging and interesting. War makes civ more fun imo.
     
  19. lucidstorm

    lucidstorm Chieftain

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    Hi, many thanks for the fantastic AI mod, could you please implement cease bothering us line in the diplomacy menu for convenience - the AI endless harassment is real (check revolutionDMC for reference), I still want to trade, just stop being harassed by small civs. Perhaps also modify how the vassal states keep leaving/joining you (they behave too much like w***, changing sides perhaps a lil too often, I dunno... what do you think?)
    k-mod and its derivates is the best mod for me so I'd love to see these changes
    best
     
  20. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    Great idea, i also support cease bother us.
    I have the exstractet part from revdcm, someone made it a stand alone.
     

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