K-MOD Immortal Pangea

[shakabrade]

Just make sure you have some protection in case they dogpile you. Karadoc has made some changes so all that code digging knowledge is useless. Those AI's all declare on Pleased and Toku even on friendly in this game I am playing (luckily he DoWed Mony). I have just played deity K-mod and those AIs are as agressive as Satan himself. You basically have to train units as if you were playing AW game. If they recognize you are running away, they'll dogpile you and will not make peace (We'd rather win the game, thank you very much).

I don't know about Immortal but I think best way to play K-mod is keeping score in lower part of the table while having at least 0.8 power ratio. Archery beeline is a must. And befriend your neigbours and kill one you can't befriend. And it all works only if AIs don't DoW you while you're still building your second warrior. Tech pace is slow so you can get to fission before anyone else and then win the game. I'll play it like that once I identify the problem which makes my K-mod crash frequently. And thanks god, begging still works although I am sure Karadoc will change that too if enough people win on deity.

Little piece of general advice. Good luck!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Begging works, but AFAIK they can still opt to plot war during peace deals now.

 

[Yamps]

That city would have been a disaster. The culture modifications would have driven that city to build only culture buildings. From the moment you settle that city would have had some Mongol culture. You do not get any culture benefits even within the inner 9 tiles.

There is some hidden bonus, but it's a lot weaker.

I think fishing would have been better too for the commerce gain.

We agree on that, I opened with Fishing->Agriculure->BW. Rusten suggested Fishing -> BW. Both are definitely playable. I chose Agri and settled north so the second city got the corn early. I'd have to play test to check for sure what's the better plan, but that's not sth for a regular game.

@shaka

A lot depends on the starting position as well. Here I didn't have much good land to play peacefully and there was also the matter of GK. Even if he wasn't there, I've come to like early catapult warfare compared to the usual Liberalism beeline. As for the tech rate, it seems stronger than usual later on. Early wars and more unit building does make things slower early. Another thing worth mentioning, they don't seem to prioritize religion founding that much so it's possible to get Philosophy somewhat later.

 

[Rusten]

That city would have been a disaster. The culture modifications would have driven that city to build only culture buildings. From the moment you settle that city would have had some Mongol culture. You do not get any culture benefits even within the inner 9 tiles.

You're worried about losing a culture war against GK when playing with Sury?
Besides, there was no Mongol city nearby (for me anyway).

 

[shakabrade]

^^
Culture is much more of a problem in K-mod. Cities spread their culture outside culture borders and cities get foreign culture via trade routes. So vicinity of multiple Mongolian cities would easly overwhelm creative trait.

( I really don't like this. What's the point with cultural borders when they don't border your influence.)

 

[Rusten]

Oh, I missed those changes.

No longer a fan of this mod (for primary play anyway) -- too many substantial gameplay changes.

 

[shakabrade]

@Rusten

Although I managed to win on deity (with some reloads since I didn't know all the new mechanics and that friendly status doesn't protect you from neighbours, Tokugawa and Monty particularly, and there's no fist) I find this mod no fun. It is simulating agressive human play but Multiplayer is still far better and more fun in this field, although I only played some hot seats . It makes all the other peaceful VCs non-option (free speech is nerfed to +50% culture because +100% with new culture mechanics would be too much PITA). You also pray for isolation. It is essentially like playing with settings something between Agressive AI and Always War with more expensive GLH and different civics. It's absurd to me that someone declares on you on friendly; what can you do about that but to constantly train units, like you're in war.

However, for anyone willing to challenge himself/herself, this can be a good mod (given that they survive to 2000BC which is pure luck). I didn't play much of this mod, only 3-4 games until killed in BCs and one to victory, so maybe it is just my resistance to something new.

@Yamps

You are totally luck dependant in this mod.
In K-mod you go Construction ASAP cause it is only way to defend yourself, followed by engineering so you can counter those annoying pillaging knights and build castles. You basically take AI tech path. Bottom part of tech tree makes you survive but you skip many trade options. Yeah, you can get Philo later and run Pacifism while you have 50+ units which is as absurd as fake cultural borders. Protective is really powerful in this mod.

 

[vranasm]

the newest posts remind me about civ V which I abandoned due to poor diplomacy...

I really hate when friendly AI DoW's you just for the sake of it and the "I want to win AI no matter what" is surely one of the worst additions to gameplay of civ at least for me (I would buy roleplay AI over iwin AI any day).

and I think that K-mod went too far from it's original intention (fixing bugs, improving speed) with the changes in game mechanics/balance.

 

[Yamps]

Hmm, not sure what to think about some changes.

Regarding culture, the way it works now is more straightforward. Smaller hidden bonus influence and more influence from actual culture that cities produce. I think this is mostly a matter of habit. When used to one system, change is at first annoying. This way one should have more compact empires. If you have an aggressive isolated blocking city it will likely get overwhelmed. The reason that culture spreads out further than usual is to help your border cities in the struggle.

Actually, when I think about it more, civ 4 has an annoying culture system in itself. For instance, if you conquer some civ in between other two civs you'll get culture squashed. Not much land gained this way. How realistic is that? This is an argument for a stronger hidden bonus, to help cities hold their BFC better just because they are there, regardless of other cities and produced culture.

Vassal system is better. Some info from Karadoc:

A few questions:

Does taking a one city vassal make other civs harder to capitulate like in regular BtS due to reduced power average? Also, if other civs hate that vassal, is it more likely that I'll get dowed? Related to that, in which cases would the AI consider declaring while it otherwise normally wouldn't on Pleased or Friendly?

Thanks

1) No. The power is no longer averaged. It is summed, but with vassal power counting for less than your own power.
2) If your vassal is hated, you'll get a visible diplomacy penalty saying something like "Our rivals are vassals to your empire" or something like that. But that's all. The behind-the-scenes attitude averaging has been removed.
3) The AI may declare war at Friendly if they are fully focused on a conquest victory. It's not always easy to tell when this is the case, but as a general rule of thumb, if someone has a couple of vassals - watch out!

Diplo is definitely an issue. However, this just might be a case of getting the needed info from code and understanding the circumstances. In the first SGOTM I played years ago I didn't have a clue that there's such a thing that some civs don't declare while Pleased, lol.

I like tactical improvements in the mod, not suiciding the stack at bad odds. AI is more goal oriented and competitive, that's a big plus. Very early archer rushes are too much though, not good for game comparison. For offline games, you can always simply restart. All in all, for me K-mod is a great refreshment, offering more exciting games!

 

[Yamps]

On with the game. 1510 AD, French capped.

Well, I couldn't go after Joao. He was the first to Replaceable Parts so the risk was too big. Got to attack somebody so the French took the hit:

Spoiler :

Those two cities had many wonders inside:

Spoiler :

Diplo situation:

Spoiler :

Diplo seems stable enough. I've signed DP with Darius. Liz is at war with Mao, but she can't reach him. I'm running Free Religion to please both her and Darius. Hopefully Joao won't get any crazy ideas and go on attacking people at Pleased. Liz could become a threat in the near future, she has redcoats now. I've directed Louis to research Rifling, but he'll need ~20 turns to do that. I'm considering attacking Mao at this point. I could always use a couple of cities more and I have a stack of units with nothing to do. My concern is that Liz might go for me with Mao gone and I'd lose the DP with Darius. Then again, I could use the mutual war bonus with Liz. Hmm, hmm...

Tech situation is rather bad:

Spoiler :

I have to take care of that now. I'll go for Banking next to build those and switch to Caste for GS and GM farming. I'll probably have to setup EE as well.

Land overview:

Spoiler :

 

[georgjorge]

Nice job whipping up that stack...I've never tried to go against Rifles with Medieval units and cannons, but it seems like catching up to tech parity would be harder to do...?

 

[Yamps]

Nice job whipping up that stack...I've never tried to go against Rifles with Medieval units and cannons, but it seems like catching up to tech parity would be harder to do...?

Heh, I'm not going to try that. Darius will likely get to infantry before I get to cannons. I just need some peace now, EE can get me all the techs somewhat later.

 

[Yamps]

Trucking on, 1720AD.

Spoiler :

17 cities, I took Mao out in 1640 AD. I lost many units there though, it was very nasty on Beijing hill. Slavery all the way, whipping banks and grocers. I've just finished Oxford and the French finally got to Rifling so I'll get that in a few turns.

Tech:

Spoiler :

Still behind of course, but I'll catch up.

Spoiler :

Demographics is starting to look better now. Darius is still much faster though.

Diplo:

Spoiler :

Diplo is what matters most. Darius and Liz have a DP. I could sign it with Darius too, but that would likely cause Joao to give me a -1. He's not in HR anymore so he's barely pleased. In any case, the AI doesn't seem to be in military mode right now. I should be careful though, so I'll start building up troops again in a few turns when I get Rifling.


Culture trouble:

Spoiler :

There's not much I could do about this. Even with a big stack inside the city there would be considerable chances for revolt. I checked it before, ~20 units reduced the chances by only 0.05%!

Other ex French city also has problems:

Spoiler :

Can't let this city revolt to Persians!

Plans to finish this:

• Tech to Democracy and Communism, whip espionage buildings
• Trade stuff with Louis
• Start drafting rifles 3/turn, upgrade later on to infantry
• Gift Darius Karakorum, steal everything in 1 turn
• (Ab)use AP to isolate heathen Joao, he'll be first
• War with infantry + artillery against Joao, maybe sth stronger

Not much time anymore for play though, I'll have to take a break for a weak or two. :/

 

[noto2]

Wow, lots of people complaining about Kmod for doing the things that I think make it great. I love it when the AI plays to win. If I want a roleplaying game I can play standard BTS, ei "sandbox" mode. But that gets boring fast, I mean the game's been out for like 7 years or something. I want to play a simulated tournament or MP game (because real MP games take forever). But don't mistake Kmod, it's not as if diplomacy has been removed. The AI only plays to win once it actually starts winning. If your ally still needs you to survive he won't backstab you. Don't let him get too powerful!

 

[Manco Capac]

Wow, lots of people complaining about Kmod for doing the things that I think make it great. I love it when the AI plays to win. If I want a roleplaying game I can play standard BTS, ei "sandbox" mode. But that gets boring fast, I mean the game's been out for like 7 years or something. I want to play a simulated tournament or MP game (because real MP games take forever). But don't mistake Kmod, it's not as if diplomacy has been removed. The AI only plays to win once it actually starts winning. If your ally still needs you to survive he won't backstab you. Don't let him get too powerful!

I asked Karadac that question and the answer was he did not change the bonus'.

K-MOD is indeed a huge step forward pseudo-intelligent AI's, but the problem is, for those high level players, is K-IMM has become deity and K-deity has become some sort of Sid level. And archer rushing is indeed PITA and kills the very possibility to compare games early. At least, in the original game and BUG, the AI started WHEEON mode once copper or iron connected (so a margin to prepare defense), but on K-MOD it looks like the AI can start his/her WHEEON mode as early as the game begins. Perhaps there is some kind of threshold or timer (like random events on BUG started T20), but a archer rushing civ around T20 is complete fun and/or competition killer.

On lower levels like EMP and less, that's fine and even great the AI knows how to direct his/her resources to victory or stunt you (it certainly spices an old game), but not even changing IMM and DEITY bonuses from the original game is a big mistake IMO. And not even give some sort or threshold is also bad. And without WHEEON mode (but IIRC someone here said it can be activated), super early rushes are even more killer. How someone can defend training right amount of defenders if the AI SoD knocks to the door two turns before wardec.
And the SoD not killing itself even push further the game killer early.

 

[Yamps]

^ you can check their war plans in the trade screen. Btw, hint: you can enter the trade screen before Writing or Sailing by hiting ctrl + leader name. It is annoying though that there's no war fist, more micro this way. Also, "we have enough on our hands right now" might not be the first reason they are giving you in some instances! I'd have to check this to be sure, I recall some talk about it in better AI thread.

Anyway...early archer rushes probably don't happen that often. And this is Immortal, so it's kinda like normal Deity. And you're a Deity player. So, come on, let's see your shadow game! (you always complain how nobody's playing your games, maybe I'll shadow one of yours too when I get back to civ playing. Damn work obligations! :S:/)

 

[Manco Capac]

^ you can check their war plans in the trade screen. Btw, hint: you can enter the trade screen before Writing or Sailing by hiting ctrl + leader name. It is annoying though that there's no war fist, more micro this way. Also, "we have enough on our hands right now" might not be the first reason they are giving you in some instances! I'd have to check this to be sure, I recall some talk about it in better AI thread.

Anyway...early archer rushes probably don't happen that often. And this is Immortal, so it's kinda like normal Deity. And you're a Deity player. So, come on, let's see your shadow game! (you always complain how nobody's playing your games, maybe I'll shadow one of yours too when I get back to civ playing. Damn work obligations! :S:/)

Indeed, CTRL+leader name is a really good trick I learnt in SGOTM15. Just ensure oneself not take ALT instead.
Indeed, even for a really micro player like me, I don't really want to verify each leader every turn.

Not that often! TMIT got archer rushed in one of his early EMP game. It was a chance he was preparing a bunch of chariots to attack Alex. Funny situation though. Cocky Alex thinks almighty and once wardec, oops, I lost all my army. He went from historical figure of a great general to unknown loser...

Hmmm...I've just started deity and you want me start K-MOD. Possibly one day I'll kick in K-MOD as I had my eyes during Karadoc's early promotions of his mod.
If a new kind of GOTM arised (KGOTM?), then my interest would grow exponentially.
And I really need to start one day or another a pangaea deity game, that's for sure more difficult than some weird fractal maps (although it depends). Crush your neighbour and you are safe from loss almost for all the remaining game. That resumes non-fractal and watery maps.

And I like whiiiining....awww...ohhhh...

 

[Manco Capac]

And you're a Deity player.

We come back to this subject after a year of personal practice.
But I don't doubt I'm an expert HoFer. And proud to be a HoFer first.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The real problem is very early game. After that, with a little bit of experience you can just keep a unit stationed in AI border cities and watch it mass up a stack on you, giving time to prepare and a fairly good idea of the composition.

The "choke + pillage" is definitely annoying though, because you can't afford to take pillaging but you really don't want to go up against immortal or deity bonuses with 50% (or close) trades. Protective can give a tiny boost there; bigger ones come from cheese UU like quecha and skirmisher which really shut down the archer aggression hard consistently (Mali is a top MP civ IMO).

I'm wanting to play, but my next forum game needs to be tachy's HRE game. I have not been able to play much over the past few days as I've been playing with groups or playing other games entirely lately, mixing in civ IV where I can with increased work hours.

 

[noto2]

In all honesty I've played 30+ Kmod games now and getting archer rushed is by no means a common occurrence. I'd say it happens 1/3-1/4 games. It is a pain, I agree, but there are a few things that can be done to make it less painful. I don't think of archers as city defenders so much anymore. I give some geurilla and place them on my hills and I'll give other ones drill or combat and fortify them on important tiles. If and when my neighbour invades with an archer stack I have time to fortify archers on tiles I deem important. At that point in the game, the 25% fortification bonus makes a huge difference, and the archers I have on hills are practically invincible. This forces the AI to choose. It can either leave my defenders alone and find it can't really pillage my tiles, or it can take my defenders at a 3-1 loss ratio, or 2.5-1. If it does that I can easily build up my forces and prevent any pillaging from the next wave, meanwhile my neighbour's economy will be slowing to a crawl. Now, I play Kmod on monarch, which I feel is the equivalent of somewhere between emperor and immortal on standard bts. Will a 2.5-1 loss ratio be enough when playing against Kmod immortal? Perhaps not, but I was never a deity player to begin with. I'll leave that to you deity players to figure out.