Keshiks under ratted?

[sspanzer]

Thank you ,bob rulz

Pikemen shouldn't be the Chinese UU, they were the main European defense during the Middle Ages.

Actually the pikeman is the main chinese army force from the late Bronze age to 19th century.Chinese rely on the defensive pikeman not the offensive rider although Chinese defeated Hun by horseman.But in general pikeman is more important than horseman in ancient china.

Yes, you are right.The expansionist is not useless.Inca is one of the most powerful AI rivals with this trait.But for human players, the expansionist is worthless especially for larger maps and higher difficulties. In a word,Expansionist is AI's trait not players'

I ever tried to use American civ in huge random maps ,deity,raging.My scout was killed in 5 turns! Since then I never touch those civs with expansionist.

 

[Samson]

Sorry it is OT, but what do you consider the American "Empire"? Just the 50 states, the states and its "puppet nations", the parts of the americas that are "friendly" to the USA / the west, or the whole western socio-eccomnomic system?

 

[K.F. Huszár]

ON topic: the main problem with Keshik, is that Mongolian cavalry was based on mounted archers, and the Keshik can not missile attack. Even more, there are NO mounted missile troops in Civ3 - that's a great mistake.
OFF topic: 1. Mongolian tribes lived in larger area, for instance in Southern-Siberia (Buryatia of the Russian Federation - buryats are essencially mongols).
2. US empire is the greatest??? For 200 years??? It is joke, isn't it? US is a great empire now, for a century. But there were much greater empires in the world, e.g. Rome, Arabic Empire, Mongols, China. Some of them for for centuries, some of them for a thousand years, some of them for thousands of years...

 

[Jake5555555]

I've alway disliked how weak the keshik is, I mean they did conquer the largest empire in history.

BTW I think that people saying that the US has the greatest empire mean that it is the most dominant in its time. For example, during romes empire China was just as big and powerful, but at the moment anyway, we have no similar rival for world dominance.

 

[majk-iii]

eh... off topic, anyone?!

 

[Reprisal]

Instead of giving the Keshik an extra point of attack, perhaps we would do well to adopt a modification to give it a defensive bombard ability. In this way, we could have a fast unit that has a defensive bombard and perhaps a higher movement rate?

Keshik: 4(2).2.3 for 70 shields that requires Horses

This way, the Mongolian Keshik/Horse Archer would have the mobility that it deserves (rather than giving it movement through mountains which makes little sense), as well as a little piece of flavour in the form of a defensive bombardment equal to that of the Longbowman, all for the same price as a regular knight.

I'm not sure that it's a balanced unit, but it should have some semblance to the Mounted Archers of old...

For comparison, the statistics for the Arabian Ansar is 4.2.3 for 60 shields that requires Horses and Iron, and the Chinese Rider is 4.3.3 for 70 shields and it requires both resources as well.

My only worry is that this version of the Mongolian Keshik would be fairly powerful when compared to the Arabian Ansar, since they cost the same yet the Keshik only requires Horses and has a defensive bombard...

Perhaps it is the Ansar that needs +1 Attack and +10 shield cost? *shrug*

On second thought, it might be easier to leave everything as is and just grab new graphics for the Keshik...

- Rep.

 

[norwegianviking]

Alvin, you have forgotten the mongols started in the mountains

 

[norwegianviking]

One little thing about china, I think it's UU should reflect the fact that they invented gunpowder.

 

[Khift]

Here's two versions of the Keshik that I think would work well:

1. 4(2).2.2, 50-55 shields, requires Horse

2. 4(2).2.2, 70 shields, requires Horse, enslave to Keshik

This does one main thing: it makes Keshiks more numerous. Instead of having a couple of them, you have a truly Mongolian horde of them. A second, minor thing it does is that it decreases their ability to keep the cities they get - instead of leaving behind a Knight or two to garrison the captured city, you've gotta get a Pikeman in there. That makes their empire a little bit weaker in the long run, which is fairly historically realistic. Thirdly, the first option makes a mass Horseman -> Keshik upgrade much more feasible while decreasing the feasibility of a mass Keshik -> Cavalry upgrade, and the second option makes an early Medieval Age war a necessity to truly use their UU.

Personally, in the hands of a player, I like the second option better. It forces a player's hand - if you plan on using your fearsome Keshiks, you must wage several wars. However, the AI would not play this quite as well. While it is true that the Mongols are one of the three civilizations with an aggression rating of 5, it's still possible that they would pass it right up. Additionally, the first option makes the Mongolian empire more of a threat in the early Medieval Age by decreasing the cost of the Horseman -> Keshik upgrade, but makes them less of a threat in the late Medieval by increasing the cost of the Keshik -> Cavalry upgrade. Overall, I suppose that the first option would be the best. It certainly mixes things up a bit.