Keshiks under ratted?

[Alvin]

I'm beginning a seris to quote the many problems that is in the units of civ3 PTW, and C3C
Keshiks are the mongols special unit. The main problem the producer's didn't resolve is that the chinese UU is actually the mongol's(you can see from the swords and hats). The mongol's special unit shoud be suited to attack on a flat ground. Their stratgies in the real world in the 1300s came from attack, decit, the reattack. Through these strategies(and razing and slaghutering anyone that stood in their way) they gathered the greatest empire the world has ever seen. Yet the Keshik is so unsuited to ground combat, i never use them...almost never.
If you disagree or have a comment, please post

 

[nameless53]

it is allready said in the civpedia text that the rider was used during the Mongolian dyanasties rule.

 

[Alvin]

sorry, i don't read the civilopedia....forget that part

 

[alamo]

Keshiks are good if you get to build them before your enemy gets knights.

Of course they can trigger your GA.

They're also a decent prebuild for cav.

BTW, 'underrated' is the dictionary spelling.

 

[Boleslav]

Alamo, I agree with your points (we Texans should stick together) and I do have a real soft spot for the Mongols, but there is something not quite right about the Keshik. I think it's the ability to cross mountains like they were grasslands... as I understood it the Mongols were a plains-based civilization in that ancient time and the mountain-crossing ability doesn't seem to fit with what we know about their empire. If the Mongols actually did have these great mountaineering knights then why did the Mongols never cross the himalayas or the hindu kush into India? When you think about the sweeping conquests they made, Russia, China, the Middle East, these are all expansions helped by plains and grasslands, not a supposed ability to cross mountains quickly.

 

[nameless53]

... china's terrain is mostly mountains, hills, and plateaus...

not any mountains exactly between the sino-mongol border i dont think but west and yes a lot south.

inner mongolia of china today has good grassland and plains.. though i think it too is disappearing...

 

[Alvin]

In the middle east, there is no mountains
IN mongalia(pardon my spelling), there is a little mountain
In western Asia, there is alot of mountains and almost no moutains.
So what do you make of that?

 

[nameless53]

.... what do you want me to offer to make of that?

mongolian empire stretched through all those area at its height.


maybe its just from Mulan but the image of the "huns ridding down the mountains for an ambush" is common if you want to speak of mongols. true or not...

ITS A GAME... they had to give it some ability.

feel free to change it...

 

[Boleslav]

Nameless, you speak the truth. There are lots of cool alternative units for the Mongols available from the customization forum, so no one can really complain about the unit too much because you can do something about really easily!

 

[The Lombard]

If it weren't for the Mongol's Civ attributes then I'd just say add 1 point to attack (giving 5/2/2), up the build-cost a little and remove the mountain-walk ability. However, because the Mongols are Expansionist and Militaristic it's more likely than not that by the time you get Chivalry you'll still have your early tech lead over other Civs. Having such a powerful attacking unit against civs with Spearmen (or halfway through upgrading to Pikemen) would make you incredibly powerful, with the Militaristic trait you'd be UNSTOPPABLE!

It's a shame the Ansar has the stats it does because they'd be perfect for the Keshik.

Maybe if the Keshik could ignore ALL terrain movement costs it would be more worthy. Hills, jungles, forests, the lot - that would not exactly be historically realistic but it could be a good gameplay adjustment as it would make the Keshik a bit more versatile. I might experiment with that, see if it's unbalancing or not.


Still, to stand up for the Keshik's 'factory settings', it's not a bad unit at all. On 3 Billion yr old maps it can be a real boon to skip across mountain ranges so quickly. It's also cheaper and more easily replaced - and thus more expendable - than the Knight, while retaining the same attacking power.

 

[Alvin]

I agree. although I disagree about giving the keshik unlimited travel abilities, because then the mongols would domaint the middle ages all the time. And that would suck for people who like late era fighting.

 

[nullspace]

I'd be OK with a 5.2.2 Keshik that costs as much as a normal knight. If the mounted warrior and immortal aren't overpowered, then adding one attack point and removing a defense point from a knight isn't too strong. It could maybe even keep its mountain-crossing ability.

 

[Kiech]

The Keshik should have the enslave to Keshik ability, since thats what they did. Ride into a village/camp, burn the gers, and take all them men and supplies - killing anyone who doesn't want to join. Worked GREAT until Genghis died.

 

[sspanzer]

I am a newbie from chinese. This is my first post here.
I totally agree with Alvin.
In original Civ3, there is no mongols but chinese only.One evidence is that the Rider's appearance is not chinese but mongol's.The Another one is that one of the MGL named Kublai ,a mongol khan in history.
I think it is inaccurate the rider is UU of China.In civ2 ,there is a Pikeman whose appearance is completely chinese.I think pikeman should be chinese's UU.Besides,I think chinese civ should be industrious and agriculture.Chinese is inept in war and is not warlike as well.Instead ,most of the chinese are peasant
As for mongols in C3C, I think it is too weak.Expanionist has no advantage at all for players especially in Huge size map together with Deity difficulty.Keshik is 10 shields cheaper than normal knight,but more vulnerable.And its bonus is meaningless in practice.
I think 4/2/2 for keshik is acceptable.And I think its bonus should be 100% retreat from the battle field once it lose in the battle.Is it attractive for warmonger like me?

 

[Alvin]

But yet they can't hold down the cities they conquered, unlike the knights.

 

[bob rulz]

Pikemen shouldn't be the Chinese UU, they were the main European defense during the Middle Ages. And if you're an experienced Civ3 player, you will know that none of the traits are useless. Expansionist is good, because you get a scout to scout out territory, then the goody huts are firendlier, giving you a great tech boost in the Ancient Age (I've come to love that). It is the weakest of them all, but it's definitely not useless.

Oh, and welcome to CFC sspanzer

 

[necrosmith]

they gathered the greatest empire the world has ever seen. Yet the Keshik is so unsuited to ground combat, i never use them...almost never.
If you disagree or have a comment, please post

Off topic, sort of, but I'd say the United States is the greatest empire the world has ever seen.

By great, I don't mean benevolent of malevolent, I mean most powerful.

 

[bob rulz]

That's only because of the age we're in. If the Roman Empire still existed they could probably kick the crap out of us (with modern day technology of course).

 

[Boleslav]

Off topic, sort of, but I'd say the United States is the greatest empire the world has ever seen.

By great, I don't mean benevolent of malevolent, I mean most powerful.

The US has a very strong overall range of power, but:

It's not got the most population (China, India)
It's not the biggest country (China, Canada, Russia)
It's not got the biggest army (China)
It's not got the highest GDP (Switzerland)
It's not got the biggest economy (the EU)

However, it does have the best aggregate between all these scores. I think already we are seeing the decline of American power, in our lifetimes we will see the emergence of a multipolar world.

Historically speaking, two empires stand out as being the most powerful, the Mongol empire and the British empire.

 

[cnt_dooku]

Off topic, sort of, but I'd say the United States is the greatest empire the world has ever seen.

By great, I don't mean benevolent of malevolent, I mean most powerful.

Off topic too.
I disagree with the use of Empire en United States in one sentence. Empire leans too much to one emperor at the top. I'd still like to think the US is a democracy lead by a leader it chooses and deserves . Hope the US people choose wiser next time around.

But most powerful, I do agree!