Kick'n it with the legion

[Valkrionn]

So I have played most of the other races on Rife so far, but last night I tried The Legion to see what they are all about. I have to say that I love most of what they have and are about, but for a few fatal flaws.

1. Almost all of thier fighting units are so week on the attacking side that I find myself lining the borders of my cities with them just so when someone decides to attack they can defend and get a higher rating. This seems pretty behind the times and underpowered as most of the time the game throws enemies of 15 strength at me as soon as I start to get anywhere and I am forced to throw minion after minion "under the bus" so to speak, to stop just one unit form wreaking total havoc on my cities.

2. I like how they are limited on how many cities they can have, it makes sense to do this, but maybe it should be raised to like 6 or 8. Maybe there could be a special building you have to build later in mid game time to increase this?

3. Since they are undead maybe they should have a unit that would allow them to control the natural undead that occur from lairs and ruins. You could limit the units power by making it so you could only create 4 of them and that they can only control say 2 each. They could also be limited on what type of undead they can control by upgrades and could limit the unit by making the player acquire Necromancy and several other techs.

Besides those things I think the Legion will be the lead civs for me to play in Rife from now on.

1. Melee is meant to be useless for them. Use Arcane or Disciple.
2. Limit only applies to the number you can build freely. You can easily conquer new ones, and if you raze those you receive a settler you can then use to create a new city.
3. D'tesh possesses the Opalus Mortalis, which allows a spell that converts the dead to your cause.

The Legion has no flaws.

Sure it does. It just has other things that make it too strong right now.

1. Plot/Improvement Yield.
   • I'm nerfing the amount of time it takes to auto-terraform. Strongly so. No more 5 turns and then poof, grass->plains. Expect more on the order of 25-30.
   • Coupled with this, D'teshi improvements will require Wasteland to be built. New cities will be useless until they have been wasted.
     • FlavorStart places them in Desert; Capital should be able to develop well, as that is just one step from Wasteland.
   • Kelp will no longer be ashed. Ashing of aquatic resources in general moved back to Arcane Barge, from Fishing Boat.
   • Improvement yields nerfed.
2. Immunity to Health
   • This will likely remain as is, frankly.
3. Invisible Fort Popping/Lair Exploration
   • Both will make the caster visible.

Yeah, that's probably it. I mean, I purposely avoided the actual Warrior and Axeman because they stink. I guess thought the Sentinel/etc... were Melee UU's because they didn't require a religion and I never checked.

Nope, Disciple. After 1.5, they will be Polearms, until then Disciple is the best fit.

according to the greyfox wiki chosen are 4+3death
cant say what lichs are atm, not at a pc with civ
but i think there were 5+2death or so... at least thats their values for ffh (once again, according to the ffh wiki), i think its the same in rife

yep, their casters are too strong.

Chosen at 4+3 are weaker vs undead/demons/angels than Lich at 5+2. Lich also receives free xp. Chosen do not.

The entire D'teshi arcane line does not. They are the core of your army, and should be doing the fighting... They need the strength.

You should read "In A Bright Land". It's a mindscrew and it requires a pretty solid grasp of FfH lore to follow (I have not, for instance, actually taken the time to parse out Korinna's father - "one-handed man with stars for eyes", Tarquelne indicated he was given minor mention at best.) but it goes a long way towards explaining the Scions. It all makes sense after that.

If you look closely, D'teshi mechanics are just what the Scions should have had. Fallow, generates population with HIGH efficiency instead of LOW efficiency from opponents, truly immune to health issues and terrain, possesses an effective system for dealing with food resources, powerful Arcane and Disciple lines...compare and contrast Themoch and Thanatos, the invisible stealth line and Korinna the Black Lady, The Risen Emperor and Lord D'tesh as capstones. D'teshi even get Haunted Lands spread for free.

Yeah, I'm a little bitter. It hurts that the Scions have such awesome and thorough lore, and D'tesh didn't even have an entry until recently, he was just some guy. I think even the Gem of Death is an add-on. Yet, one civ is the strongest in the game and the other kills itself with its own flavorstart and unique terrain feature...

Both civs were developed at the same time, actually.

As for your points....

• Scions can't have high efficiency, it is difficult to wake them from the Vault.
• They are not immune to health because they are not mindless. It may not truly hurt them, but it sure as hell makes them unhappy... They love their pleasures.
• Food I can sortof see, but really, goes with the health thing. They don't need it, but they WANT it.
• Arcane is similar (though inadvertantly), Disciple won't remain that way... Though the Honored Band will also become a Polearm
• Actually a lot of points of similarity there. Scions win with Korinna, however.
• D'teshi Haunted Lands won't stay that way, honestly. I like the graphic of them on Wastelands, but they'll lose all yield for them.

We want both civs in the desert (have some competition for the Malakim, basically), but we could move the Scions, or give them ways to handle floodplains.

 

[Venir]

Yes, you should build melee units as D'Tesh. Build 2-4 warriors for your Binder stack to eat the first time you send them out. Then you no longer need melee.

I don't get the Scion hating as being unplayabled. Yeah they're not as ridiculous as D'Tesh, but playing either with the Emperor or the usurper guy as your leader (both charismatic) they're still pretty strong. Tech KotE-Bronze Working-Fanaticism, win. Korinna the Red is easily a game-winner by herself as soon as you can upgrade her (aka Fanaticism not required), at least in single-player. They may have issues but it's not like they're the weakest civ out there.

 

[azzedar]

i dont 'hate'(better dislike) the scions for beeing unplayable or something. i just hardly dislike their concept. i tend to play civs i like/can identify with/i like the atmosphere.

scions have a concept. they have many concepts, actually too many. theres that rome thing. theres that ancient civ coming back alive thing, theres that 'we dip in deep pleasures' thing, theres that wierd nature evolving/decaying thing, theres that bodygrafting thing, theres that megalomaniac godleader thing, theres that religious cult thing, theres that artisan and creative thing, theres that militaristic thing, and so on.
they dont necessarily contradict (although you can ask some very nasty questions that can never be answered satisfying)
imho scions are the perfect example for a concept that has been horribly overstretched by wanting to be too many things at once at the same time. it feels like machine where the many grinds and gears dont exactly match producing and enervating sound telling you: at some point the creator(s) have/has lost the idea of what they/he really wanted to create and what not.

 

[odalrick]

it feels like machine where the many grinds and gears dont exactly match producing and enervating sound telling you:

I think that is what the creator wanted...

 

[azzedar]

i think u misunderstood my metaphor. this is a sign of bad concept-making. i try again.

what are the scions?
-they have a strong miltaristic tradition but they also do culture and infrastructure stuff
-so theyre urban and city, but theyre also crazed undead druids turning the landscape around into twisted, haunted plant stuff

-so their leader also believes himself to be some kind of necromancer allmighty better-than-everybody-else god everyone has to follow (->religious cult...), but they have a free will and do artisanry
-they they can enjoy pleasures and do so often, but they are also religion fundementalists/cultists
-so they are just like alive humans? no theyre also undead. you know, they have the best of both. (in concept, not im game mechanic, im talking of atmosphere)
-so theyre religious? yes, but theyre also focused on magics.
-so theyre strong mages? yes, but theyre also focused on priestlike stuff. ah and theyre melee too.

what are the scions? oh you, know they just focus everything.
i have no idea if this word exists this way, but its overconceptualisation now

if you want to create a fiction society, decide for several points to focus and do that. this is not "depth" its just too much.

/edit:

this thread should be parted and called "why azzedar is a scions hater" or "why azzedar believes the scions to be a badly concepted civ"

 

[Tarquelne]

scions have a concept. they have many concepts, actually too many. theres that rome thing. theres that ancient civ coming back alive thing, theres that 'we dip in deep pleasures' thing, theres that wierd nature evolving/decaying thing, theres that bodygrafting thing, theres that megalomaniac godleader thing, theres that religious cult thing, theres that artisan and creative thing, theres that militaristic thing, and so on.
they dont necessarily contradict

Most of those things are closely related, if not just aspects of the same thing. Godleader (megalomaniac?) and religious cult, for example. On to the larger point: Everything flows from following through/exploring a few concepts, and how they might interact. "Artisan and creative" thing, for example: They kill time.

I'd say the biggest curve-ball, by far, would be the Haunted Lands/Redactor stuff. And that's exactly what it's supposed to be. That the gears don't mesh exactly is indeed by design - it's even mentioned in the civ's intro pedia entry. Any civ where the gears do mesh completely is one I'd call "simplistic".

I understand this is a matter of taste, and thus not really something that can be sorted out one way or the other. OTOH, I think you over-state the case against the Scions. What you say is lack of focus I'd just call detail, and following through on the initial concepts.

(although you can ask some very nasty questions that can never be answered satisfying)

As I've often said, "There are far fewer rhetorical questions than most people think."

 

[Tarquelne]

i think u misunderstood my metaphor. this is a sign of bad concept-making. i try again.

what are the scions?
-they have a strong miltaristic tradition but they also do culture and infrastructure stuff

Well... as designed they *don't* really have a strong military/militaristic tradition. Certainly not compared to the truely militaristic civs, and probably not compared to the old Patria.
Note the high war weariness. Civ4 is largely a wargame, however. There's a lot of military detail to the Scions because there's a lot of opportunity for it.

-so theyre urban and city, but theyre also crazed undead druids turning the landscape around into twisted, haunted plant stuff

Yep - there's the biggest lack-of-gear-meshing. So the civ has at least *two* things going on! But the background is fairly clear that the Redactors and the HL stuff is weird even to most Scions. The story goes a long way toward explaining why it's around.

-so their leader also believes himself to be some kind of necromancer allmighty better-than-everybody-else god everyone has to follow (->religious cult...),

I think you've been reading too many Bannor propaganda tracts. (ie - what you describe isn't actually part of the Scions "Lore".)

but they have a free will and do artisanry

-they they can enjoy pleasures and do so often, but they are also religion fundementalists/cultists

-so they are just like alive humans? no theyre also undead. you know, they have the best of both. (in concept, not im game mechanic, im talking of atmosphere)

They aren't shambling zombies, yes. And they seem to be getting the better end of the stick so far as corporeal existence goes, yes. I don't see the problem.

-so theyre religious? yes, but theyre also focused on magics.
-so theyre strong mages? yes, but theyre also focused on priestlike stuff. ah and theyre melee too.

You're saying they're too much like other civs? Or that they don't specialize enough?

if you want to create a fiction society, decide for several points to focus and do that.

I did.

this is not "depth" its just too much.

*Shrug* Based on your post I'd say at the very least we have different tastes, and possibly you just have a poor grasp of the Scion background material.

 

[azzedar]

one example:
first of all, what is culture? expressions of, mostly, art. art is only able to spread (or strongly favored) in society that allows free will and free opinion.
so what, scions all have to follow one person but also creative at the same time? i doubt a majority of people who can think freely would follow one person in such an extremist way. of course younger future seems to contradict this.
on the other hand, all those cases in history and today politics show those countries suffer from a strong decay in intellectuality and/or art=creativity.
the only argument i would accept here is that the real way culture works and the civ way of altering territory is a bit... bad done. :>
second: beeing creative is way to kill time? oh yeah, thats how art is created. by people trying to kill time. WTH!
while i accept (and embrace it) that fantasy alters reality, im sceptical when very basic rules of human behaviour are ignored.

over-state the case against the Scions

i tend to be a bit sarcastic some times, dont mistaken this for beeing extremist or "over-stating" if i do, its only to enhance my point of view. im not for deleting the civ, and ive played them several times too. /edit: and i liked some parts of it

/edit:

*Shrug* Based on your post I'd say at the very least we have different tastes, and possibly you just have a poor grasp of the Scion background material.

lets compromise on this, and that a the scion gameplay (as ingame) doesnt manage to single-handed create a working atmosphere without reading all the forum stuff, either because im stupid or because we have different tastes

/edit: i wouldnt criticize if i didnt liked some parts. ive been following ffh and ffh mods for about two years now in the forum, and post very rarely (at the moment very often cause im visiting my parents who dont know what "potent computer" is.) and only if something really interests me.

 

[Meldon]

Well the Scions are undead. They don't need to farm, they don't need any medical careers. The citizens that don't work in the military or in "religious" buildings need SOMETHING to do as a career. So they relive the intellectual glories of Old Patria. The Scions are meant to have the average citizen be wasting away in lavish luxury. Look at real life, people who have that kind of lifestyle often become art connoisseurs or decide they have nothing better to do so they take up art.

 

[azzedar]

Well the Scions are undead. They don't need to farm, they don't need any medical careers. The citizens that don't work in the military or in "religious" buildings need SOMETHING to do as a career. So they relive the intellectual glories of Old Patria. The Scions are meant to have the average citizen be wasting away in lavish luxury. Look at real life, people who have that kind of lifestyle often become art connoisseurs or decide they have nothing better to do so they take up art.

the vast majority of human history's great artists in painting, literature and philosophy were people who lived in very poor conditions, often fearing for even beeing properly provided with the very basic needs.

 

[Tarquelne]

one example:
first of all, what is culture? expressions of, mostly, art.

Only for the sake of argument: OK.

art is only able to spread (or strongly favored) in society that allows free will and free opinion.

Good art, perhaps.

so what, scions all have to follow one person but also creative at the same time?

You seem to be vastly over-estimating the effect of the Emperor's cult, or existence, or something. Lots of highly religious societies have produced a great deal of art.

And leaving Scion advantages in the art: In addition to time, there's money. They start the game with an already full and sophisticated artistic tradition - the Patrian tradition.

So far as impressing other civ's go, they could probably get by on copying Patrian art. They've already got some of the famous artists at hand...

i doubt a majority of people who can think freely would follow one person in such an extremist way. of course younger future seems to contradict this.

I'd guess you're over-estimating the number of extremists.

on the other hand, all those cases in history and today politics show those countries suffer from a strong decay in intellectuality and/or art=creativity.

"Those" countries? You mean the ones following manifested supernatural entities for hundreds of years?

second: beeing creative is way to kill time? oh yeah, thats how art is created. by people trying to kill time. WTH!

Meldon addresses this.

while i accept (and embrace it) that fantasy alters reality, im sceptical when very basic rules of human behaviour are ignored.

I'm skeptical that you've spotted any violations of those rules.

i tend to be a bit sarcastic some times, dont mistaken this for beeing extremist or "over-stating"

No worries. As far as I can tell it's not the sarcasm: I think your actual positions are poor.

lets compromise on this, and that a the scion gameplay (as ingame) doesnt manage to single-handed create a working atmosphere without reading all the forum stuff

Well... sorry. No. The gameplay, sure. It isn't enough. But so far as ingame vs. forum: There's an awful lot of material in the 'pedia.

I'll agree so far as stating that IMO reading from the 'pedia is a PITA - Information is scattered among a LOT of entries, and reading material off a monitor is rarely comfortable.

 

[odalrick]

I think the Emperor is fairly laid back. Yes, he is the Emperor and yes, he is God; but those are just titles.

We have a King here in Sweden, that doesn't mean anything in day to day life. Meeting him would be exciting, and if I did I'd call him "King", but I know he is just a man. He just happens to be king also.

Same with the Emperor. He is just a man. He also happens to be the Emperor and a god, but that doesn't make him a bad person.

I've never been to the USA, but judging by television series, all americans worship their Presidents far more than Scions worship the Emperor.

the vast majority of human history's great artists in painting, literature and philosophy were people who lived in very poor conditions, often fearing for even beeing properly provided with the very basic needs.

The vast majority of humans in history lived in very poor conditions.

Some talented enough become great artists received patronage from kings and became rich.

 

[Tarquelne]

the vast majority of human history's great artists in painting, literature and philosophy were people who lived in very poor conditions, often fearing for even beeing properly provided with the very basic needs.

I guess the people who didn't become "greats" weren't miserable enough.

OTOH, I think I can compile a list of artists, writers, and philosophers who lived in some comfort. I won't post again unless I can present a complete list.

 

[azzedar]

Some talented enough become great artists received patronage from kings and became rich.

yeah, patrons AFTER they showed their talent. that hardly combats my argument?!
and even then, having your live dependant on some feudal lord isnt a pleasurable live either. many lordly patrons threw their favored ones away real fast when they didnt enjoyed their company anymore, so far that some of the great artists of renaissance and medieval ages spend times of their live in dungeons or in fear of beeing treated so. yeah, thats a good live.
you have a poor picture of an artists live. art has never been a good way to get rich, not in past, not today. there are exceptions, but there always are.

@Tarquelne
honestly, i wont comment anymore. you think my arguments poor, mostly as i think, because you dont really understand what im writing (which doesnt need to be your fault, writing in a foreign language is difficult and much is left on the way),
i cant say i like your arguments either from "you arent deep enough in it" on; my arguments are about why this isnt the case.
for me the gameplay decides wether i go deeper into something or not, atmosphere, if persistent enough, draws you in.

i hope your not pissed. i regard your work and could have never done the same (for the coding stuff alone i have no skills in at first), especially for the love of customization detail, even if i think its too much it surely has been a lot of work.
end on my part.

/edit:
im not interested in starting a "whos got the longer artist-list"-race

 

[azzedar]

argh,. seems im messing up a bit with the edit function

 

[Torugu]

I love the Scions precisely because they aren't as one-dimensional as some of the other civs.

And the hole discussion about rich and poor artists is misguided. Culture in civ isn't about art at all, it's about cultural influence, and you don't impress the people living on the other side of the river by having a population of artists create the most beautiful of statues in some dirty corner of the local slum, you do it by having rich and powerful aristocrats put those statues on the top of the their equally impressive and monumental palaces and temples.

 

[Calavente]

@azzedar. It seems you are missing 1 BIG point :
the scions are NOT human.
They are UNDEAD !!
They are former Humans, dead, and revived somehow.
The best of them are revived.
So one may say they revived the best soldiers, the best former artists (from a 1000+ year empire), the bests ... mages..etc.
So if one revive leonardo da vinci.... won't he be able to make art ? maybe not as good as alive but still way better than everything I could ever make.

Plus culture in civ is NOT limited to art. It is "influence". It comprises art, but also greatness (stalinian greatness for exemple), garbage culture to impress the peasants...etc Culture and Art can be made "on demande". Most middle age/renaissance artists were not "impoverished artists with only free will". They were art technicians with inspiration and they did what they were asked to do. (sixtine chapel, David, Versailles...Etc). Their art was not an expression of the soul as for modern artists, it was business. Thus, even under a tyrany one can find culture.

IMO it is not that the Scions lacks focus but you seem unable to find the common thread to all their quirks.
I think I see one :
They are (all people that count) reborn citizen.
the emperor reborn is the "god-emperor" of the scions, in a way the first Scion.
As such the rebonr citizen have free will... but have a deep admiration for the emperor.
Thus they don't follow any other religion than the cult of the emperor.

They are undead : they do not sleep and lack stimulation. As a consequence they try to revive the finer moments of life, eating good stuff, having nice things, producing(reproducing) art...etc
As they do not sleep they can work longer than other civs. So that compensate that they are not as bright and not as strong as they were alive.

As for magic... they are UNDEAD, revived with MAGIC, and know THE MAGIC FROM THE PATRIAN EMPIRE. Of course their arcanist should be good ! when they formely were alive they were some of the greatest archmages Erebus ever knew ! They just have to remember how to cast spells.

lastly, the creeps.. I don't know, never read the lore about them. But they could easily be a by-product of REVIVING FORMELY LIVING PEOPLE.

I think my little "stroy thread" covers most of your points in a coherent fashion.

 

[azzedar]

i will see that i read an play more with and about the scions in future. the game may not have managed to suck me into their atmosphere (which imho is still the civs guilt), but those posts have turned me interested(play some heavenly music here). i wont revise any of my previous statements now. but ill read some of the stuff next days.

 

[A Moon]

1. 
   Nope, Disciple. After 1.5, they will be Polearms, until then Disciple is the best fit.

1. 
   
   Polearms. I remember reading that there would unit-combat changes in the future, but this is the first bit of detail I've found.
   
   Could you please explain a bit more, or will I instead need to throw a sock at you?

 

[azzedar]

throw the sock!
if this doesnt work,
try with pork
then: put in a rock!
and throw again the sock