King of the hill - open challange for all playlevels

[Snaaty]

@ USun:

Spoiler :

Dont know if it really is a winning chance, but stalins invasion force is crushed and he now has a city next to my capital

The rest of the AIs on our continent we should be able to take out (IF nothing unexpected happes, that is)

 

[ABigCivFan]

@snaaty

Spoiler :

Stalin lands his 30-50 unit stacks on BOTH sides of our conti at any given moment. I really dont see how you could keep defending every coastal city(you will need at least 15+ strong defenders in each city to defend against any surprise attacks, mabye with railroads). Initially he does not bring siege, later he will come with siege. Some cavs are necessary to flank the siege.

Also when you are busy defending Stalin, how do you replace your losses to the south? Against 4 Deity aggressive civs on tech parity is unthinkable.

The designer put Stalin on the other conti all by himself without any competition, he is free to explode to a gigantic empire with almost unlimited resources (i.e. Deity bonues).

In my try, I quickly conceded several coastal cities to Stalin, but was able to retreat and hold on my capital and SE prod city until someone builds the ship. But my econ was not as strong as yours.

 

[mzprox]

I have a promising opener save, however surviving the next few turns will be critical as the Khan is on his way with around 20 units

Spoiler :

As you can see on the picture it's 1360 BC i have the GW, the pyramids, Hinduism in both of my cities, a GG already, will have a great spy in 9 turns (or maybe an engineer)

However i'm very weak.. i try to defend that barbarian city on the south untill i can take it without razing it, but in my two tries i have failed to do that. Also the Khan is coming with lots of keshiks and chariots... so it wont be easy to block them at that point, but i will try. Or if any of you wana try i send a save.

*edit: I've managed to protect that city and eventually captured all the barbarian cities, but at 200 BC I've lost to a massive Keshik attack... :/ (like 15 keshiks + lots of catapults+ the rest..) I will try again from some point to get even more soldier..
I can call my economy a "Great General Economy" . half of my research comes from settled GGs under representation.

 

[Duckweed]

To 500AD

Spoiler :

Tech:
Math->CS->Currency->Sailing->Masonry->Mono->Monarchy->Aes->Lit->Music


CS in 75BC. Another reason I grabbed CoL from Oracle. With such a powerful capital, Burea enhance both our empire's commerce and hammer by ~30%.

Build GL in 2 turns, I am also the 1st to Music.

 

[Duckweed]

To 1000AD

Spoiler :

Tech:
MC->Machinery->Archery(Wrong decision, I almost never build a single xbow in most of my plays, so I overestimated the power of xbow. I built 3 xbows and intend to used them for Macemans (2 promoted to Hill and 1 promoted to Drill. they all died in the battle while all my macemans have survived)->Med->Paper->Calendar->Drama->Phi->Alpha

1000AD Tech

1000AD Empire

 

[BigMac1082]

This thread is awesome. Nice job Snaaty

 

[Halt]

Duckweed -

Spoiler :

Tried again this morning and got an openning almost exactly like yours. Previously I went for the GW (and Monothiesm) and Stalin grabs Bud and Ragnar Hindu. This time I tried it without grabbing Masonary after BW going to wheel instead and Ragnar skipped Hindu and I grabbed it with Wheel, Myst, Poly. I tried it twice more eactly the same thing happend. So it appears if you skip Masonry Ragnar skips Poly and instead waits and goes for Monotheism.

 

[Duckweed]

@Halt

Spoiler :

Hindu is just an unexpected bonus. As I mentioned in my guide, my strategy is to oracle the CoL and that does not require much luck. If you can't get the luck of jungle spreading to the blocking hill site, I would suggest you to mass produce Prats as quick as possible to seal the three jungles passage behind that, as what U Sun did. Good luck!
By the way, Wheel is so important for early Axes = cash + exp + cities

 

[Halt]

Duckweed

Spoiler :

I understand. I have both Oracle and COL/Confu too. Shaka built a city near the river/dye to the south near the hill. I took it over and have the three jungle spots and the hill praying for Jungle. Also going Math/CS route, CE economy.

This is fun!

 

[Dirk1302]

This is quite a tough challenge. I didn't find too much detail on the early part of the challenge once iread the spoilers. I can recommend this game for educational purposes, you won't have that sinking feeling from an ai declaration so soon if you've been through this experience.Overview, some tentative tips and some questions for Snaaty,USun.

Spoiler :

I fiddled around with some strats, i first tried to hold the 3 choke jungles in the south. i had 4, 4 and 3 praets/axes on each all with wood 2. Unfortunately the combined ragnar/Dgenghis/Zulu forces broke through at the 3 praet point around 800 bc. So you need even more than that amount around 800 bc which probably means not building settlers and not too much workers.The units there will also cost you a ton on supply or maintenance once you build a city there. Still if it is possible to hold these jungles or maybe the hill in front of it, it might be worth the lack of early development as can be seen from USun's game. Once you seal off the north you can develop at leisure.

I chose a more modest strat in my second attempt. I now fogbust the tundra north, not being hassled by barbs from that direction beats the promos i think. Build some axes early sending 2 south. Went mysticism poly and grabbed the religion. In the meantime Stalin built mids, this gives me some time so i fetch IW and build settler/ 2 praets first before going priesthood, i had prechopped 3 forests so i can can take oracle around 1500 bc taking MC. Col would still have been an option , 2 happy with second religion, also monarchy with an eye to early feudalism. LB is only marginally better than praets though and Feud is very expensive.MC gives 2 happy too with Forge/gold/silver. And this Forge nets 5 extra hammers.

I have some 5 units now to go with a settler, build block city 2s1w of corn. I need all these units because Shaka is already there 1600 bc with a metal stack. Played on to 1 AD, i'm in a reasonable position finished construction 100 bc and i'm getting cats out fast cashing prechopped forestst. 5 cities up, pig horse city captured from barbs, phant/sheep/corn city captured from barbs and silver fur city settled for the +3 happy (i have forge of course in capital by now) 4 GG's are settled meaning i can get barrage3 cats out of the gate, 2 of these cripple every enemy stack.

It could have been better though so i may retry from the point i got oracle. 2 things i'd like to try

- i stacked units on the forested hill 1sw from blockcity, i now think that forest should be shopped early i have a feeling that the enemy units are scared off attacking blockcity by this stack. They tried to go through the corridor north straight to capital which was annoying. The corridor should be chopped and roaded too to make it unattractive for units to go through, by 500 bc your own units are so strong that you can just pick off stacks taking this route. This chopping/roading should be done early or you don't really get a chance to do it anymore.

I think it should be possible to time a GS before GP, that GP is nice but a GS would be that much nicer. I could go currency after construction, building wealth with an academy. i can then get some real research done. A forum would come in handy too. This is possible since i have enough units 1 AD to keep the defensive line. I did road/chop the area north of the capital so i can take care of camalities there easily now.

Some tips and questions

- get praets asap, theyr'e so much better than axes, an axe once hit is dead on the second attack, praetes tend to live, also attacking with praets goes much better obviously.

- chop and road as much tiles as possible you should have some 5 workers around 500 bc.

- If you get the ivory city from barbs ( i don't think i would build that one myself soon) station some troops there, but not too much, else your force gets scattered too much. just let them take it taking your troops out if you can't defend it anymore. But build roads in the neighbourhood so you can handle a subsequent march to your capital from there.

- settle GG in capital to get the promos up to 11, that third promo is such a killer giving you formation or barrage III out of the gate amongst other things. Use a wood III as healer.

- i wonder if archery would be worth it, it would help with direct city defence giving your other units some more leeway, unit maintenance would be killing though.

@Snaaty , how were you able to build Mids? i more or less need all the units i have to defend, could be that once i chop everything near block city they attack this city (which would be much better) or are scared to approach so i don't need so much units.

@USun, how many praets did you have on each junge? Or did you hold the hill in front. I may retry this strat too, it saves so much headache if you can hold in the south.

@All When was the first attack wave and what was the stack composition of the first wave?

I'll put up some sceenies up later.

 

[Kev]

What a great thread this is to read. I am in awe of the skill.

My question for those of you getting late enough into the game to even think about victory conditions: Is there enough time to get to Fission and then mass nuke Stalin? Or would you perhaps face your own nukage once the Manhattan Project is done?

Or are nukes even available in this game?

 

[Duckweed]

To 1500AD

Spoiler :

Tech:
Edu(burn 1GS) I would have gone for Edu right after paper if I knew that I was so unlucky of GP production (my 4th and 5th GP are a GPriest from capital and a GE from NE city in less than 10% Odd. (Unfortunately Taj was gone before the GE was born so I Settled him in capital).
->PP->Gun->Compass->Construction->Eng->Feudalism (stole)->HR(stole)->Guild->Banking->Chemistry(1GS)->Lib take Steel->RP->Rifling->Nat->Theo
Then I start my 1st golden age and change to Nat and Theo to draft Riflemans and build cannons.
->MT->SP

Lib takes Steel

1500AD, Stalin's 1st SOD show up, Hmm that's puny, 5 galleons only.

and the next turn, another 3 stacks appears, total of 28 galleons. They all go for the trap city I built for Stalin. Damn, I need another 10 turns to welcome Stalin. At that time, he would be happy to see 10 Ironclads and 20 cavs.

However, for now, most of forces are gathering at the blocking site and try to invade Shaka.
1505AD Forces (My major forces is 2 dozens of Riflemans and cannons each.

1505AD Tech

Edit: PS Early destroyers are the key to win.

 

[Duckweed]

I didn't find too much detail on the early part of the challenge once iread the spoilers.

Have a look at my guide and 500BC report, I described my development in detail and is easy to pull the similar result.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Duckweed

Spoiler :

I did most of the things you did including the inital choke in the south with the warrior reinforcing with an axe later without reading any spoilers,after i was done to 1 AD i read the spoilers..That choke wasn't too succesful, Zulu were there with metal ~1800 bc. Better retreat than let a good axe be slaughtered.

Seems like i didn't play very different from what you did. Took MC instead of COL from oracle. I got attacked really early though and have been forced to defend or at least keep an eye on multiple points since the ais didn't always attack the block city but moved past it a problem also signalled by mzprox. I think i can improve here by chopping/roading more around it while there's still time.

I don't know when that hill in the south grew jungle in your game but without it's not obvious you can keep on defending the Ivory city. My position 500 BC resembles yours but i haven't invested any effort in the ivory city since i use it as an attack bait for ai to slaughter them once they grab it.

I'ts not holding out until 1500 AD that's the problem, i can easily manage that from my 1 AD save but for the game to be won i may need better position 1AD than i have now.Early GS as i suggested in previous post would give me a clear plan.

 

[Duckweed]

@Duckweed

Spoiler :

I did most of the things you did including the inital choke in the south with the warrior reinforcing with an axe later without reading any spoilers,after i was done to 1 AD i read the spoilers..That choke wasn't too succesful, Zulu were there with metal ~1800 bc. Better retreat than let a good axe be slaughtered.

Seems like i didn't play very different from what you did. Took MC instead of COL from oracle. I got attacked really early though and have been forced to defend or at least keep an eye on multiple points since the ais didn't always attack the block city but moved past it a problem also signalled by mzprox. I think i can improve here by chopping/roading more around it while there's still time.

I don't know when that hill in the south grew jungle in your game but without it's not obvious you can keep on defending the Ivory city. My position 500 BC resembles yours but i haven't invested any effort in the ivory city since i use it as an attack bait for ai to slaughter them once they grab it.

I'ts not holding out until 1500 AD that's the problem, i can easily manage that from my 1 AD save but for the game to be won i may need better position 1AD than i have now.Early GS as i suggested in previous post would give me a clear plan.

Spoiler :

I had several Forest III Axes very early and I sent all of them to the choking point, they eat archers freely in forest/jungle and they can repel 3 to 4 times of units easily. I can't remember when the jungle spread to the choking hill, I believe that would be ~1000BC after I cleared a couple SODs.
Edit: Before cats come near AD, Axes works the same as Prats against melee units. Most of my Axes had Forest III very early, but the new born prat only get 1 promotion. I think I built ~ 8 Axes before the 1st prat was born. Shaka's SOD is just a joke before my Axes.

Speak of GP, I settled my 2nd city very early and tried to get the 1st GS as soon as possible. As you can see from my 500BC screen shot, I stop research to accumulate cash for many turns until my 1st GS comes.

Speak of how many Prats you need for the defense. I can give you a rough number: ~10 for each spots after cats comes in. My situation is better, near 1000AD, I even put ~ 15 units for defense. So I need less numbers but have to pay for the fee for unit supply.
Edit: Related to you unit supply issue. If you grab Confu in the Corn/Wine city, it will pop the 3rd ring culture shortly and solve your problem.
Also, CoL IMO is obvious a better choice than MC. Happiness is not an issue early on once you grab a religion. Your city would be small due to whipping. Moreover, early cheap courthouse and CS will empower your empire tremendously.
My capital has been responsible for all military unit production except the Riflemans and cannons.

 

[ABigCivFan]

My thoughts about Navy and game post 1500AD/Astro.

Spoiler :

I do not think the player has any chance trying to compete with Stalin on a navy. Stalin's econ will take off after all the cottage techs since he has more land mass than 4 players combined on our conti.

He has easily 3-4 times more cities than the best save we have here and builds units at 60% discount. In naval battles, it is all about numbers. So here is what i think about a realistic winning chance.

Everything has to work perfectly:

1. Focus on technology and land units, have comptemporary units especially siege against Stalin's offenses. Use collateral damage to the max. Try get Artillary, Radar Artillary, and bombers early since he does not seem like anti-air units. Have plenty of Guarrila2+CG3 defenders in cities to absort the inital attack, counter attack with Arty+bombers+combat/pinch/ambush troops.

2. A big problem is I do not see coal on the north part of our land, see if you can get a coal source down south. It will be extremely important to have rail roads to fend off Stalin's raiding parties on both sides of the conti. If you can not get any coal. I will just say that the desingers of this map really worked hard to ensure that the human will lose.

3. The other 3 civs on our conti will be back-wards after industrial Era, destroy them if possible or at least hold them to the south

4. If we can efficiently hold off all the AIs with a good kill-loss ratio with core cities untouched, we might have a chance to build space ship.

Duckweed provided a very strong save which can be used for diff experiments.

 

[Snaaty]

My thoughts about Navy and game post 1500AD/Astro.

Answer in spoiler, at least for 1500 - 1700 AD:

Spoiler :

1. No coal, so no ironclads to protect your coast... ...seems the designers of this challenge have thought of everything (no coal even in Shakas and Ragnars land, only far, far away in Khans backland)
2. Ship of the lines (SoLs)... ...are the answer... ...build them in great quantitiy and you can keep your shores clean. After Stalins innitial invasion, I had some frigates promoted on scouting checking high seas and a stack of 6-7 SoLs with 4-5 frigattes on each side of the continent
3. Get the circumnativation bounus, thats important. If Stalin gets it, then it might be impossible to defend due to slow SoLs.
4. Promote your about half of your SoLs on navigation, that gives you 5 move togheter with the circumnavigation bonus, rest along the strength line, to pick of Stalins SoLs later. Strength 4 is goal here to have odds of 80%+ in open water

With that como, I managed to keep my shores rel save. Stalin usually brought stacks of 6-8 gallons and 3-5 frigates, later additional 1-2 SoLs. If there are stacks of 15+ gallons, simply kill the SoLs and frigates and block their way, then pick them off during several turns. Just ALWAYS replace naval losses, you NEED 10+ ships to do so successfully.

Sometimes some gallons managed to break through, because they were so numerous and decided to attack single frigates on sucide runs to break my lines, but never more then 3-4 of them managed to disembark units after the innitial landing and these were easy pickings with rifles. After thinking about it, I guess I sunk 100-150 ships, loosing only 10-15. After a while, they are so highly promoted, that you even can kill enemy SoLs with odds of 80%

...

I´m about to take Ragnars capital within the next turns btw., but from now on it´s going to be painful, because he has infantry since some turns and I only cannons, grens and rifles... ...but at least I have lots of them

...

I will post a save and some picks after I played the next session and took Rangars capital (only doing 3-4 turns now per session, because each turn takes ages)

 

[Pohjalainen]

I'm a bit late here but here it is my first attempt anyway. I forgot those exact update times while I was playing and didn't make a proper save before I was defeated but maybe it doesn't really matter.

Thanks very much for the game, it was very useful exercise about early warfare. I was amazed that I could hold up to 820AD since I just moved to prince.

So, Prince and 820AD

Checkpoint 1: 725BC

Spoiler :

I built two early cities one in southwest and other in southeast and then I conquered one barb city from northeast. I built few workers and then chopped&whipped barracks and then non-stop praets. Shaka's chariots razed my city in southwest from Rome before 500AD.

Checkpoint 2: 600AD

Spoiler :

150BC I lost Antinium in southeast to Genghis after Shaka had first soften up my defences. Then I put all efforts to keeping Rome. I managed to stop five stacks by 600 AD. Two from Shaka, two from Genghis and one from Ragnar but I had serious financial problems because those stacks had pillaged the gold mine in south of Rome and my army was in strike and I had to dispand few units.

Checkpoint 3: 820AD

Spoiler :

Rome fell 720AD after Genghis had took out the best edge from my army then Ragnar sent a stack of cats, crossbows and few berserks.

After this my faith was sealed but I still hold up a few turns but finally Shaka's macemen captured Cimmerian 820AD.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Answer in spoiler, at least for 1500 - 1700 AD:

Spoiler :

1. No coal, so no ironclads to protect your coast... ...seems the designers of this challenge have thought of everything (no coal even in Shakas and Ragnars land, only far, far away in Khans backland)
2. Ship of the lines (SoLs)... ...are the answer... ...build them in great quantitiy and you can keep your shores clean. After Stalins innitial invasion, I had some frigates promoted on scouting checking high seas and a stack of 6-7 SoLs with 4-5 frigattes on each side of the continent
3. Get the circumnativation bounus, thats important. If Stalin gets it, then it might be impossible to defend due to slow SoLs.
4. Promote your about half of your SoLs on navigation, that gives you 5 move togheter with the circumnavigation bonus, rest along the strength line, to pick of Stalins SoLs later. Strength 4 is goal here to have odds of 80%+ in open water

With that como, I managed to keep my shores rel save. Stalin usually brought stacks of 6-8 gallons and 3-5 frigates, later additional 1-2 SoLs. If there are stacks of 15+ gallons, simply kill the SoLs and frigates and block their way, then pick them off during several turns. Just ALWAYS replace naval losses, you NEED 10+ ships to do so successfully.

Sometimes some gallons managed to break through, because they were so numerous and decided to attack single frigates on sucide runs to break my lines, but never more then 3-4 of them managed to disembark units after the innitial landing and these were easy pickings with rifles. After thinking about it, I guess I sunk 100-150 ships, loosing only 10-15. After a while, they are so highly promoted, that you even can kill enemy SoLs with odds of 80%

...

I´m about to take Ragnars capital within the next turns btw., but from now on it´s going to be painful, because he has infantry since some turns and I only cannons, grens and rifles... ...but at least I have lots of them

...

I will post a save and some picks after I played the next session and took Rangars capital (only doing 3-4 turns now per session, because each turn takes ages)

Spoiler :

on fending off Stalin's early landing parties. Stalin gets the modern techs very quickly, I hope you can manage to stay current with him on the naval techs.

 

[Halt]

Well I tried to get us a different start it is 1440BC... giving this a try!

Spoiler :

1440BC we have Hindu, Conf, and Mono! Stalin has Bud.. So Rags, Shaka, and Khan will have no religion until Taoism. We also have the "hill" with Jungle and multiple Axe woodsmanII

[/IMG]