King of the World #21: Charlemagne

A controversial idea to get value from Bureaucracy: Declare on Ragnar and abandon Bremen to him. When he takes it, your palace gets moved to the best remaining city - almost certainly Rome or Salzburg. Then just retake it immediately and you've moved the capital without building a new palace. The cost is 2 population in Bremen and some of its buildings. However, it's a lot easier to destroy his stack while it's in Bremen as there's no need to bombard cultural defences first. Then just march on to take and raze Ribe.

Not sure if this is any good at all, but just wanted to toss out the idea.
 
personnaly, my short plan would go for tunis: easy to take (1 longbow) and nice spot with sheep and marble.
For ribe, it seem that 7 unit with walls is a bit too mutch for you :p keep it for latter and raze it.

after that, 2 plan seems open: build an army of musketman and destroy europe or tech guns out and storm around europe.

Given your tech advance at this point, the first path seems tempting. But will you be able to grow an army before your opponent grow a bigger army? is musketen enought to win a war (i never liked this unit, its smaller than a knight)

I would try to play the defence/small grab. Eventually trying to grab few cities and aim liberalism for win gun tech and then destroy europe.
Going est or west is only a matter of relation with other states when ready.

for civic change, it all depend if you aim an army of musketmen or rifflemen...

btw which wonder are still open?
 
Musketmen are actually horrible attack unit unless you're Ethiopia or Ottomans. Altough you being protective and thus getting the Drill 1 promotion, you could go for vassalage and get drill 3 muskets out of the gate meaning, muskets+trebs could be doable..
 
Didn't noticed you are at peace with everyone :o
time for turtle up and build strong cities up to rifling/nation.
university of sankore will be required as soon as paper is online.

It is worth notting that steel is not mutch further than liberalism

Metal casting is available for trade. it may be a good idea.
 
A controversial idea to get value from Bureaucracy: Declare on Ragnar and abandon Bremen to him. When he takes it, your palace gets moved to the best remaining city - almost certainly Rome or Salzburg.

Why on earth is Bremen the capital of the HRE in 1000AD? The HRE didn't really have a fixed capital (ie they weren't in bureaucracy :)), but I don't know any reason why Bremen would be chosen. Salzburg would be better, but some more western city would probably make more sense...?
 
It might be for gameplay issues. If there's not a culturally strong building in Bremen, such as a palace or a wonder, it'll be culture-crushed or even flipped by Paris in no time. It's more historical with Bremen as a HRE capital, than Bremen as a French city from the 14th century on.
 
Paris starts off at 100 culture, while Bremen starts off at 10. Hence the cultural pressure. If Bremen had more initial culture, it won't flip. Capitals don't have much to do with it.

And in AI-vs-AI games Bremen sometimes does flip to France.
 
Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.

well said!
 
I'm not super confident about this round. I felt like I was spinning my wheels a little bit. But, then, I always feel that way when I'm not crushing two Civilizations per round, so I'll let you all be the judge.

I started out by making some much-needed Civics changes:



At the end of the Golden Age, I switched Slavery over to Caste System. We are running a specialist economy, after all, and besides, Slave Revolts are no fun for anyone. But this brief dalliance with the whip helped us get some much-needed infrastructure up and running, especially in Cairo.

Playing an Alphabet-ready game with AIs that are willing to play ball (and not in, say, Always War), I found myself back in the tech-trading seat, and found that I've still got the touch:



So maybe that's not the most amazingest deal in the world, but it'll do, considering that Elizabeth is not going to beat us to the Sistine Chapel. And Compass, well, it's an important stepping stone to Optics, and also provided another potential benefit, which I'll show you in a bit.

Charlemagne decided that his advisors were correct. Despite the fact that the Holy Roman Empire was, at its core, a European entity, it had valuable interests in North Africa, and those assets were under threat from Aksum:



The city was worth conquering, certainly, but Charlemagne thought long and hard before deciding to keep it. It was, after all, one off the coast (Argh!), but it had the ability to work valuable tiles, and it was a Christian city. The generals stayed their hands, and one more polis was added to the new Roman Empire.

With our war with the Arabs over, Charlemagne decided to do a bit of trading with the surly Saladin:



This was less for the three gold per turn and more for the deliciousness of selling the Arabs pork (Hey, it was either that or Wine, which would have been no better). Say what you will about Salah ad-Din the man, but in Civ? Guy's a jerk.

Louis proved himself a capably crazy AI, founding yet more unsustainable colonies far from home:



Frankly, I'm all for this foolishness. France is known for beautifying its cities, which'll make them that much more inviting once the Christian brotherhood dissolves and we are regrettably forced to take them for ourselves.

But what of the short term? Will there even be a Holy Roman Empire to war with France if Paris' Culture overruns our borders? After all, as many of you have pointed out, Bremen starts in dire straits in this regard. Don't worry, guys, I got this:



Suddenly, those free Scientists hanging out in the Great Library are painting Mona Lisas when they're not working on gyrocopters. It's no longer us trapped next to them. They're trapped next to us!

One disadvantage to the Apostolic Palace is that, well, the available resolutions aren't very entertaining when everyone's already at war with everyone else. All you can do is beg for peace. So in the way of an experiment, I decided to call an end to the war against Ragnar. It failed, predictably, but what's interesting is why:



Stamped out by Saladin and Justinian. Saladin's Defiance makes sense. As the other Enemy of the Faith, the Arab leader wants Europe's armies to spread themselves as thinly as possible. But Justinian? What deviousness does he have in store?

Anyway, we made another tech trade. This one I'm less proud of, but, well, we need to get some Forges up and running, especially now that we have all these bonus Hammers from Christian architecture:



Again, it's weird that we have Machinery and Engineering without Metal Casting, but whatever. I'm not gonna argue it.

Anyway, you remember what I'd said about Compass being useful? Here's why:



So, Harbors and Caravels. The Harbors I can justify, but the Caravels might be a bit of a stretch. If we complete the quest, we can give all our Naval units either Combat I or Navigation I, or we can get +1 Gold from every Harbor. The Harbor bonus seems a little weak to me, but the Naval promotions could be fun in later eras, particularly Navigation. It would turn us into quasi-Vikings! Historically, this would be a little ridiculous (The Romans weren't really sailors, the Holy Romans even less so), but gamewise, it might be a good investment. I will say we're rather behind in the race for circumnavigation (a few empires already have Caravels puttering about), so stacking would be tough. But it still might be worth pursuing...

The Sistine Chapel bore fruit early. Bremen's triumphant Culture sent the outpost of Ribe into paroxysms of revolt:



A Viking city bristling with Berserkers and Longbows bolstered by City Defense bonuses is a tough nut to crack. Half-strength Longbows and Berserkers, though? In a city without a bonus? It was a sign from the Lord. War must come to the heathen north.

The fighting in Denmark led to the birth of a Great General, who was sent to teach and drill in Salzburg:



I figure, with both Representation and the Sistine Chapel, the Super Specialist made sense, and Salzburg seems the best fit for our military pump. For now, it's mostly producing Knights and Trebuchets. It's too bad Rifling is so far off.....

Ribe fell late in the 13th century. Given the holy mandate of this war, Charlemagne opted not to spare the city. The citizens were butchered in the streets, and hogs were permitted to feast on their corpses:



These swine were quickly penned in and fed to the burgeoning population of Bremen. A few cases of kuru broke out, but we lacked Optics, much less Medicine, so those extra deaths were never properly investigated.

We earned a Great Scientist in 1300:



I probably should have settled him (again, we get crazy bonuses to specialists!), but the 9 turns shaved off Education seemed worth it to me. I haven't found a great deal for Philosophy yet, but I'm sure one will turn up, and then the Liberalism race will be all mine!

In 1330, I took the opportunity to steal Tunis out from under Saladin:



This cemented our hold on the central Mediterranean, and we bought a cheap peace a few turns later. 50 gold for a halfway decent city and a guarantee that Syracuse's borders would go unchallenged? I'll take that deal any day. And it's not like our relationship with Saladin can be salvaged anyway at this point...

I made what may be a controversial research choice a few decades later:



Economics is expensive and is, basically, a dead end tech until we get Constitution online. But Free Market is pretty awesome, and the sooner we can get that, the better. And the Great Merchant will look mighty fine settled in Bremen.

What of Optics, you say? If we're gonna do this Harbormaster thing, we're gonna need to get some Caravels in the water? I've got that covered, too:



Again, not a fantastic deal, but whatever! Isabella's an afterthought, anyway. Stupid fanatic can't even reconquer her own peninsula.

So in 1400, I noticed something that made me worry a little bit:



You'll note that Aksum is no longer being squeezed by cultural pressure from the east. That can only mean that Saladin no longer controls Mecca. And, given that Justinian has taken Jerusalem, I'm gonna lay the blame for this on him, too. The Arab empire has basically fallen, and the Byzantines are getting too big for their britches. I think it's time the Holy Catholic Church reminds these Orthodox @$%^&es who's a player, and who's just a stinkin' AI. Besides, we've already established that the Byzantines are up to something. Not that Justinian's gonna lay down and die, especially with those hulking Cataphracts on his side. But we've got Landsknechts, which are basically Pikemen with really fancy pants. So that should even things up.

Here's a look at our Military Advisor. Still not where we want it to be, but we're making progress:



Should we rip off a few more chunks of Saladin's bloated corpse, or should we go right at our real enemy? How much more do you think we're gonna need before we can make our move?

Here's a look at our empire in three screenshots, north to south:







You'll notice our pair of Knights up there in Scandinavia. I was hoping to make a quick raid on Ragnar, but the trip through Russia was long, I couldn't reinforce by boat owing to the Viking mastery of the North Sea, and the settlements up there are better defended than I was really planning on. So, I dunno. They're kind of stuck for now. Anyway, with the capture of Ribe and Tunis, our technological accomplishments, and our progress in turning the Culture War, I feel like it wasn't a total waste of a round, but I look forward to hearing what I could be doing better.

The save:
 
But Justinian? What deviousness does he have in store?
Never trust a perfidious Greek :mad:
 
Capturing Ribe with Bremen's last garrison? Gutsy move. :p

I agree that it's time to take Justinian down a peg. Do you have intelligence on him at all? Power rankings--anything like that? Might be a good idea to tweak espionage that way if you don't.

I'd say wait for Cuirs to take care of him, to be honest. Cataphracts are nasty buggers, and I'm not sure how much Landsknechts will help you. I'd agree with your assessment that Economics may not be the best way to go, especially if you want a military edge. If you're looking for it as trade bait to get Philosophy to finish up Liberalism, then yeah, I can see that, but otherwise I'd be going Nationalism and then Mil. Tradition.

You said it yourself: Gunpowder is an okay prize. But how are you going to leverage it?

Still, nice job taking another big wet bite out of Saladin, and kicking the Vikings out of Denmark is, I'd say, huge. I think the time's come to let Saladin languish, though. After all, what right do the Byzantines have to the Holy Lands? Surely this sacred land would be better administered by the Holy Mother Church herself. :jesus:
 
I think it's a good round. You needed to kick the Danes out and consolidate.

I'm not sure about keeping Tunis and Aksum. You don't have bubbles on, but it seems Tunis and Syracuse are fighting for the only seafood nearby. If Tunis keeps that, Syracuse is a useless city working sea tiles and PH windmills. It Syracuse gets it, Tunis will be a lot less useful. Actually, keeping Syracuse might have been the mistake, building it 1W would have made it viable, but now it is just sitting there. Can you gift it to the arabs and then raze it 10 turns later? Is there a penalty for razing cities with your own citizens in it (there should be!)

As for aksum, I guess it gives elephant and consolidates your hold on the Nile region, relieving Cairo of some pressure, I don't think it is worth it on the short run unless you build an upper Nile city as well and actually invest to make Egypt work out. If you attack Justi, Egypt will be quite a liability as it turns it into a two front war.

Talk about attacking Justinian... I agree that you might need to wait until renaissance. Defending agains catas with landsknecht might work, but attacking with them? How strong are the garissons on the cities you can see, and can you send a knight to scout out byzantium, asia minor and the holy land?

Strategically it would be very nice to take out France and Spain, as that would guard your back against a brothers-in-faith-attack or bribe. You should be able to outproduce them easily, and hopefully Justi is still busy with the Arabs for a while...
 
i think t was a good round too.
the only questionable things are the knights camping outside of the norse cities (oh, well, how to know how many troops they have?) and tunis. but it´s been played and played well.

justinian is the guy to take out. or to weaken. thing is, that afaik there is no real option for diplomacy with him or the vikings, for they don´t count as civs or something. so the basterd has to go.
and for once landsknechte are a very good unit. at least against justin...
 
I love the evolution of this game :D

In general there is two different approaches when playing a civ game:
Grab the small ones until you become too powerful or attack the direct opponent for earlier win (but with bigger losses). This current game is not exception: Justinian is the big one and western civ the smaller, Saladin in just the cake between.

In this case, the best strategic would to go to Byzantines (backstab an attacker is always a good idea). However, your actual army doesn't seem that impressive at this time and may require a bit more power to crush him and, in the end, Egypt will suffer...

The second best move would go for the attacked: aka Saladin but remaining land is far from your lands (Jerusalem and Mecca were not that far, but remaining...). Only Cordoba could be a good idea but there seem to be a lot of army there and the town would be crushed by Spanish culture.

In the end, IMHO, the best move would go to Cordoba, then, once taken, directly go for Spain then France for a unified Europe. After that, go for Justinian (with riffle and/or canons).

In no case i'll go for vikings! too far away and lower return in investment.

For research, it is really a matter of liberalism race.
Is it already won? (I mean nobody else can grab it?)
Is it possible to grab steel with liberalism?
I’ll look at the save later ^^
 
justinian is the guy to take out. or to weaken. thing is, that afaik there is no real option for diplomacy with him or the vikings, for they don´t count as civs or something. so the basterd has to go.
and for once landsknechte are a very good unit. at least against justin...

I agree that Justinian has to be taken out, but I don't see any real changes to the Landsknet in fighting him. They are, IIRC, no better than pikes against cavalry, and not much good against infantry. You'll build more of them to fight Justinian, but you still won't gain much from their special abilities.

The second best move would go for the attacked: aka Saladin but remaining land is far from your lands (Jerusalem and Mecca were not that far, but remaining...). Only Cordoba could be a good idea but there seem to be a lot of army there and the town would be crushed by Spanish culture.

In the end, IMHO, the best move would go to Cordoba, then, once taken, directly go for Spain then France for a unified Europe. After that, go for Justinian (with riffle and/or canons).

In no case i'll go for vikings! too far away and lower return in investment.

Definately Agree that the Vikings are not worth it, and that picking on Saladin has no real positives at this point. I would wait until after Justinian to take western Europe since he's a bigger threat.

DT
Advising :coffee:
 
justinian is the guy to take out. or to weaken. thing is, that afaik there is no real option for diplomacy with him or the vikings, for they don´t count as civs or something.

There are all options for diplomacy with them. Neal is playing the version of 1000AD that comes with BTS, not the vanilla 1000AD.
 
... hm. maybe the szenario wasn´t updated along with all the other things in my version.... strange.
 
... hm. maybe the szenario wasn´t updated along with all the other things in my version.... strange.

You can still play the old scenario in the BTS version, the updated version is, IIRC, further down the list.

DT
 
... hm. maybe the szenario wasn´t updated along with all the other things in my version.... strange.
There's two versions in BtS, one's called Earth 1000 AD (Civ 4), which is the old one, and on'es Earth 1000 AD BtS (somewhere down the list of scenarios, and it's one with normal Just/Rag/Wang)
 
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