King of the World #8: Shaka

[huerfanista]

If we plan on axerushing zara we don't need a second city (we already have copper) so we can keep on warring longer or keep more cities. If we want a city pre-rushing, it should be the city getting whale, gems and those FPs. It's easily defended and will add quite something to your eco with trade routes, FPs, river and gems.

Sorry, those aren't floodplains. They're riverside desert. That city isn't half as good as it looks (desert/peaks/desert hills and a few grass and 1 gems - which you already have in the capital).

@Slobberin'
I think you're wrong about the silver/fish city. It won't be able to claim the silver - it'll be 1 tile out of the bfc. There's one site to the north of Ulundi that can grab silver/ copper/ jumbos, but it only has 1 grass tile under jungle, the rest is plains and plains/jungle. There are no food resources and no way to grow that site other than plains farms.

 

[beestar]

By the way, do any mods or maps correct those riverside desert tiles into floodplains? Or are they there by design intent?

 

[huerfanista]

By the way, do any mods or maps correct those riverside desert tiles into floodplains? Or are they there by design intent?

It's called WorldBuilder.

 

[Kwibuss]

By the way, do any mods or maps correct those riverside desert tiles into floodplains? Or are they there by design intent?

Im pretty sure it's design intended.

 

[Belisar]

The correct spot for the 2nd city is the crabs/gem spot between the coast and the vertical lake, on the river.
Additional to the crabs, it gets 2 lake tiles, with a lighthouse, those are at least better than farms. Silver after 2nd culture-pop.

Most likely global development after India is gone:

Spoiler :

With India gone, Persia, who can't settle wetwards due to the additional civs in the Middle East, will quickly settle the subcontinent.
The Khmer start in the jungle and are a nonefactor on this map.
In most games where there is an alive India, they touch borders with China who is also far more likely to expand southwest faster due to the northern land taken by Korea.

 

[Leper]

I wouldn't settle west. That city won't grow past size three in ages and there are no forests to chop. Settle along the east coast instead where there is seafood and forests to chop Impis for. Impis rather than Axes due to the distance they need to cover to get to Rams who is the best target. Ideally he will build a stone wonder like the Mids for you. Since your capital needs a lighthouse anyway you might as well build the Great Lighthouse to fuel your continued expansion. Peaceful expansion with all that crap land is useless. War is the only way.

Settling east will also give you the opportunity to deny everyone Madagascar. Why invite an annoying protective civ there? Isn't it better to settle that island at leasure later just like you can do with the western city which needs Civil Service to grow?

Take out Mansa with War Elephants once you have gotten the research boost from the Egyptian cottages. Also, be careful not to invite Gilgamesh into mainland Africa by razing too many Egypt cities. That guy should be kept to one city. Preferably zero..

 

[huerfanista]

The correct spot for the 2nd city is the crabs/gem spot between the coast and the vertical lake, on the river.

IMO, the correct spot for the 2nd city is Thebes. Rameses will have archers soon (if he doesn't already). Only impis will arrive in time to enable you to easily take out Egypt. It's probably already too late to take out Zara with impis, so axes will have to do. (I'd tackle Egypt first). Zara can be easily bottled up in his 1-exit mountain lair (worst capital location I have ever seen). I'd save that settler to resettle Zara's cap (after razing it) on the coast to grab the fish/gems.

 

[Jaaboo]

(worst capital location I have ever seen)

Worse than Cuzco?

Anyway, I agree with the others calling for a rush of Ram. Remove the only real African threat first. Let Mansa tech for you and Zara settle your cities. With luck, Egypt may even build the Great Wall for you.

 

[Abegweit]

IMO, the correct spot for the 2nd city is Thebes. Rameses will have archers soon (if he doesn't already). Only impis will arrive in time to enable you to easily take out Egypt. It's probably already too late to take out Zara with impis, so axes will have to do. (I'd tackle Egypt first). Zara can be easily bottled up in his 1-exit mountain lair (worst capital location I have ever seen). I'd save that settler to resettle Zara's cap (after razing it) on the coast to grab the fish/gems.

While you can certainly argue that the settler should not have been made, we have it and it would be silly not use it. Another one can be pumped out quickly enough when Ulundi finally reaches size seven. In the meantime, claim one of the gems site. The western one has the advantage of being quicker. The northern one is more valuable, blocks Zara and is on the way to Egypt.

One advantage of the settler now is that an Impi rush against warriors would have been just too cheesy. Kinda have to hold off on the wars in order to make it fair.

 

[JammerUno]

A city 1 NW of the gems would have a riverside grassland, a riverside gems hill and 3 grasslands to work. It will easily pay for itself, have 5 good tiles to work, and if you irrigate the grassland, it will grow to size 5 fairly soon. It will also claim a big piece of the desert and the whales at the 3rd borderpop.
Short term; working a size 5 city with 4 cottages, one of which is riverside and a riverside gem will be a great help to your bpt.

 

[huerfanista]

While you can certainly argue that the settler should not have been made, we have it and it would be silly not use it. Another one can be pumped out quickly enough when Ulundi finally reaches size seven. In the meantime, claim one of the gems site. The western one has the advantage of being quicker. The northern one is more valuable, blocks Zara and is on the way to Egypt.

Zara is creative. His culture will overwhelm anything you put in that area - you will never keep those gems and you won't be able to block him in because his culture will quickly overwhelm those tiles.

EDIT: I'm wrong about the gems. They're in Aksum's 4th ring, but controlling the gems will depend on where he places his 2nd city (he may already be there). You still can't block him, though, because the plains hill exit from his mountain ring will be in the 3rd ring of any city that you settle which can claim the gems/fish. Obviously you can pin him with an impi or 2, but then he'll just make a ton of archers. CG archers on a hill with 40% defense are no joke.

One advantage of the settler now is that an Impi rush against warriors would have been just too cheesy. Kinda have to hold off on the wars in order to make it fair.

Not to worry - I'm sure he has archers by now. And 40% cultural defense.

 

[GeorgeF]

Just plant one Impi in the pass (or on the Wooded Hill S of Aksum) and Zara gets no more cities. Take Aksum at your leisure. But be prepared with lots of seige. But just use one unit on Zara and then concentrate on the rest of Africa.

 

[huerfanista]

Just plant one Impi in the pass (or on the Wooded Hill S of Aksum) and Zara gets no more cities. Take Aksum at your leisure. But be prepared with lots of seige. But just use one unit on Zara and then concentrate on the rest of Africa.

Don't be surprised if he has another city (or 2) out by the time you get that impi in place. After all, if Neal's had time to build a settler, so has Zara.

 

[slobberinbear]

The correct spot for the 2nd city is the crabs/gem spot between the coast and the vertical lake, on the river.
Additional to the crabs, it gets 2 lake tiles, with a lighthouse, those are at least better than farms. Silver after 2nd culture-pop.

Yeah, that's the spot I was thinking of. I didn't have the map handy.

Given where Aksum is placed, it will take a LOT of border pops for Zara's culture to take over the gems site, assuming Neal gets a monument in City 2 fairly soon.

City #3 then gets the silver and elephants -- and possibly the copper in the Congo depending on where you put it.

 

[huerfanista]

Yeah, that's the spot I was thinking of. I didn't have the map handy.

Given where Aksum is placed, it will take a LOT of border pops for Zara's culture to take over the gems site, assuming Neal gets a monument in City 2 fairly soon.

City #3 then gets the silver and elephants -- and possibly the copper in the Congo depending on where you put it.

Spoiler :

Forget it. I opened Neal's save and moved a scout over towards Zara. He already has a second city out, which is one pop away (3rd) from claiming the gems. Aksum if also 1 pop away (4th) from claiming the gems. The settler is 6 turns away from settling that spot if you send him naked - longer if you wait for an escort. Then you have to get a worker over there, chop a monument, and wait for 15 turns for the border pop. So the short version is that Neal won't be getting those gems. Also, Zara's second city will grab the silver, IIRC. He settled on 'phants.

 

[Ultimocrat]

Here's a decent map of South-Central Africa, from the Mansa Musa KotW:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0449.jpg

 

[huerfanista]

Having looked at Neal's save, I'm a bit confused about where he's going here. His opening post proposed the following strategy:

if memory serves, we share the continent of Africa with Egypt, Mali, Ethiopia, and Carthage. Why not crush them in some spectacular early wars, then turtle up for a cultural victory? We haven't gone that route yet, and this way, we don't completely waste Shaka's early military advantages by being a total peacenik.

ATM, Ulundi is at pop 3 building a 2nd worker. His existing worker is mining the gems (without chopping first - that would have at least gotten the 2nd worker out sooner so the city could grow, which is essential if you're going to be able to use any of the tiles). He's got a settler built. The forested copper is not mined. Wheel is being researched.

This opening build order would suggest a standard opening that you might use with any leader for a rush: settle a production site for the second city and pump military, then go and bang heads. I don't think this will work in this situation. Here's why:

1. There are no good production sites to settle for a second city. There's no food on this map, and without food there's no production. What's he gonna settle that will produce in time for a rush?

2. All of your targets are a LONG way away. Aksum (Ethiopia) is 15 tiles away, Thebes (Egypt) is 23, Timbuktu (Mali) is 20, Carthage is

Spoiler :

26 (in a spoiler because you can't see it in his save). And if you war with Hannibal you should raze every one of his cities because they'll be completely swamped by Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek culture - if you keep them, they'll revolt.

90% of the terrain between Shaka and the AIs is jungle/ forest/ hills. There is only 1 UU in the game that is perfect for this scenario: impis. But to use them for a rush, everything must be directed towards getting them out ASAP or sooner. Once the AI has CG archers in any number, you can forget about rushing with impis. Zara is the only one who is feasible to rush with axes, but you're talking about 15 turns (375 years on epic speed) to get them over there once they're ready. Forget about rushing Rameses with axes - you'll be lucky to get them there before Ram has longbows.

3. Capturing AI capitals that far away would put an incredible strain on your economy if you were playing anyone except Shaka, but ikhandas make this doable. Why settle cities on your own that will make your empire less affordable early on? IIRC, 4 cities is the point at which maintenance costs ramp up quite a bit. The only decent land in africa is in egypt, where you could have 2 good cities (which Ram has already built for you, no doubt). Why add a mediocre non-production city of your own? Sure, you'll want to found cities later, once you have currency, but I don't think it will pay off this early.

4. Building a settler has delayed city growth quite a bit (and this is a slow-growing capital). The gems are being mined, but without the food to feed them. The copper is just sitting there in the woods unmined. So everything that would have facilitated early military production has been ignored.

this way, we don't completely waste Shaka's early military advantages by being a total peacenik.

Honestly, I think that Shaka's early military advantages have been wasted. I'm not trying to be harsh, Neal, but I don't see how the way that you've developed Ulundi is going to implement your strategy. Any wars will be expensive at this point, and will need swordsmen (with the possible exception of Zara). I'm no genius at Civ - far from it (I'm barely competant at Monarch) - so I may be way off base with my criticism. But I've tried this scenario at monarch a couple of times, and it's a bear even with a successful early rush (impi rush isn't that hard, TBH, at least on monarch - but you do have to beeline it). I'll be watching with interest.

EDIT: And I hope you prove me wrong.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

1. Neil, could you at start, Please make a note, that you have to load this map as a mod...(for really dumb slow people like me, took me about 6 tries to figure that one out, and thanks for putting up like to MOD)

2. What's all this talk about taking out WARRIORS with Impi's...ITS EMPEROR level, that AI's START with ARCHERS/archery.

3. Madagascar, SETTLE IT, its an OFFSHORE TRADE ROUTE. Do I think its your 2nd city, no, but settle to block south of Zara, so as to DENY access to it. You can make 1 city at least, possibly 2 if it matches real life size

Spoiler :

I've actually looked in world builder, 3 in a pinch but 2 easily/better

4. Impi's are for Pillaging/stagnation. Axes/Swords are for taking cities. , probably take out with Impi's, you have a barracks, just give city raider to many, you'll take heavy losses , but it saves UPKEEP. will be WONDER SPAMMING anyway , so you'll face minimal garrison of archers as you'll have pillaged metals with Impi's anyway .

5. I like the idea of a Shaka Cultural win, it'll force you to play differently. I'm interested in how you develop AFRICA .

6. World builder cheat peak

Spoiler :

Probably your greatest threats will come from Russia/South America. Russia has so much land to expand into, Pacal is in lower Central America, with easy access to Northern Columbia/South America head, and the Incan Hyuana, has to access Sailing and sail around to access Argentina and rex from the South, two Financial monsters. HUGE AMOUNT of land to cottage/AI BONUS. IF Pacal, can hold off Monty in Mutal. (its across a river)

Europe is a non factor, too many civ's, no production. A 1 city civ from AI can't expand out. Germany may get to Vassalize/conquer some or all of Europe, but most are set to 1 city status.

Asia, China is nerfed, Korea has Siberia only to expand too, Khmer can go to Indonesia, Persia into the Caucuses, but now has Indian Subcontinent .

All in all, I think Neils in for a most entertaining game. Love the Cultural twist. Conquer Africa, launch the Slogan "AFRICA FOR THE AFRICAN'S", and show that Civ's not all about war, but (population), arts and Culture.

 

[CHEESE!]

1: nothing to say
2: Not on Earth 18- they start with extra warrior instead. Not sure if this is the same way.
3: AGREE. Useful spot there.
4: Agree
5: Agree
6: Agree- but he nearly never really bothers with that mountain.

I think this will be the BEST YET.

 

[Abegweit]

1: nothing to say
2: Not on Earth 18- they start with extra warrior instead. Not sure if this is the same way.
3: AGREE. Useful spot there.
4: Agree
5: Agree
6: Agree- but he nearly never really bothers with that mountain.

I think this will be the BEST YET.

The AI never start with extra techs in scenarios. Furthermore, even when they learn the techs, they won't use them properly. For example, you are liable to see Thebes defended with one archer and two warriors instead of three archers.