King of the World #8: Shaka

[huerfanista]

@Abegweit

I think this is where you go wrong. You go too early. Get up a proper attack force (about 10 vets) and keep pumping more out. You'll find about one fortified archer and two whipped in the entire civ. If one has CG, it's probably one of the whipped.

Actually, my point was that if you go very early it's quite easy to take out both Zara and Rameses. It's not hard at all, and this is the perfect setup for doing it: copper in the BFC, decent starting techs, gold and gems for early research. I found it fairly trivial to go fishing> mining > BW, build an ikhanda, switch to workboat, back to ikhanda to size 2, switch to worker, mine gold, etc etc - pump impis, kill Zara, kill Rameses. But I didn't delay anything. To me, that tech path will always be optimal with this leader in this location. But as soon as copper showed up in the BFC (not even needing a road!) I green-lighted an impi rush by chopping out 6 of them ASAP. That way, I didn't face CG archers.

Maybe I'm missing something in what you're saying?

@Slobberinbear

I suppose what chafes a bit, though, is the idea that somehow Neal has messed up this game (or made it harder on himself) by building a settler before his impi stack. Denying AI city sites and grabbing resources is a legitimate strategy, even if it sets back the rush a little.

I would normally agree with you here, except that I have found that there are unique challenges on this map that (IMO) make a normal strategy sub-optimal.

First and foremost is the poor (terrible, actually) quality of the land below the equator in Africa. There's no food, and without food are very hard to come by. All games (except perhaps diplo) come down to - whether you put them into units, culture, or spaceship parts. And without food there are no that are usable.

Second is distance. In the early game the penalties of owning cities in the extreme north and south of africa are quite large, and will eat up a good deal of your resulting in a low rate. A few gems and gold will not fix that. Ikhandas are a large benefit in this regard, but it's hard for me to see the point of founding sub-optimal (i.e., very slow-growing low-output) cities in south africa which will only increase your maintenance. Nobody is going to take that land away from you for a long time if you don't settle it. Once your economy is established (i.e., post-CoL and currency) you can easily establish cities in that jungle and try to get them to grow.

So I don't see the point of what Neal's doing. I already said - several times - that I'm not in the same league as him (or most of you), so I'm hoping to learn a lot here. But I haven't seen many substantive replies to the points that I've raised. How exactly is a 2nd city in S. Africa going to contribute to the overall strategy:

crush them in some spectacular early wars, then turtle up for a cultural victory

Is there a site that will yield enough and/or to make a difference over what Ulundi can produce on its own, and will justify its upkeep costs before you have a strong economy? The gems/grassland next to Ulundi on the west will give you 1 good commerce tile (gems), no (other than the 2 from the gems), and will be very slow growing with only grass farms to feed it (cottaging them immediately would stunt growth even more). The coastal fish to the ENE of Aksum will probably not be able to hold the gems, and will not claim them (or the fish) until 15 turns after a monument is built (leave aside the fact that there are no workers available for this, nor any escort, at a time when barbs are starting to appear), and has only plains hills (which will eat up all your food very quickly, stunting growth for little return). The silver/ copper/ phant/ site to the north is all plains, so you will get neither growth nor hammers nor commerce from there anytime soon, and you really have all the happy resources that you can use for the short term - you can get some very short-term gain by chopping all the trees.

The only reasonably cost effective use that I can see for the settler is

Spoiler :

resettling Aksum on the coast to claim the fish and gems after you raze the one that Zara settled on the hill. You will lose the cow and incense, but you can't claim the cow and fish in the same BFC, and the fish is the only food that's there. It'll become a semi-decent production/commerce site, and will keep Saladin from settling there.

All the things that are needed for a cultural victory are sitting up there in Thebes. They're not in S. Africa. All of your research will come from those floodplains, any wonders you plan on building are in that stone and marble (and in the FP-powered that will get the required techs in time to build them). The sooner those things are in your hands, the less far behind you'll fall in the tech race. I'm sure Neal can get to Egpyt with Shaka, but can he get there in time to actually use those resources? You can eventually conquer all of Africa quite easily, but there's not a lot IN Africa that will get you to a victory condition (at least as far as I can see). I'd describe it as "Mongolia with gems".

I'm rooting for Neal all the way. This is one of my fav threads. (And besides, with Sis in retirement somebody has to keep the high-post-count tradition alive. )

 

[huerfanista]

@Abegweit

Zara will likely help. By the time you get to Ethiopia, you can open borders.

So are you advocating leaving Zara alive and just going for Ram? That's an interesting thought. He will, of course, claim all of the area between Memphis and Ulundi. So is your idea to "loan" him all of that land so that he can develop it for you? I hadn't thought of that, but it could work quite nicely. It will mean maintaining a large military to eventually take him out later.

 

[Leper]

Zara can be kept as a little pet in his mountain cage.. just raze his outer cities and then rush in every 20 rounds or so and steal workers and pillage him. Impis are untouchable until he gets metal.

 

[DMOC]

You will suffer diplomatic penalities for repeated declarations, especially since Zara is more likely to be favored by many other leaders. Of course, if you're powerful enough, you can ignore this.

 

[Abegweit]

@Abegweit


So are you advocating leaving Zara alive and just going for Ram? That's an interesting thought. He will, of course, claim all of the area between Memphis and Ulundi. So is your idea to "loan" him all of that land so that he can develop it for you? I hadn't thought of that, but it could work quite nicely. It will mean maintaining a large military to eventually take him out later.

I'm not advocating anything at all. I was just merely pointing out that, if you beeline Ram, Zara will likely help you build your road to Egypt. None of the land he will claim is "interesting". But, yes, letting him have it while going after better places is a good idea.

 

[Abegweit]

You will suffer diplomatic penalities for repeated declarations, especially since Zara is more likely to be favored by many other leaders. Of course, if you're powerful enough, you can ignore this.

One of the things (not the only one) that I dislike about this scenario is diplomacy. It is just too damed complicated.

 

[Harv]

Ulundi at size 7:

Spoiler :

There are two arguments so far about the opening play: One is to impale Ram with Impis and the other is about how to develop the capital to its early game potential as early as possible.

Since we are still not able to produce Impis, you might as well work the second plan and build up the capital to its full potential and then build an army. Africa will still fall to Neal's host of Impis, Axes, and Swords.

Neal does need to work quickly at building Ulundi, however.

I went way back to a much earlier discussion about the potential of Ulundi - It should be in the quoted spoiler above. I started another shadow game and played out to Turn 100 and the results are in the spoiler below:

Spoiler :

Ulundi reached Size 7 on Turn 97. The Lighthouse was completed on Turn 100. It already has an Ikhanda, Granary and Library. Production is 21 - Swordsmen every 3 turns. Commerce is 32 including a trade route to London. With the library, Science can be as much as 40 per turn.

Cape Town (-5,-2) was settled on Turn 60 and is size 2. It has built a granary and is working on a Library. Production sucks at 3, but Commerce is 12 including a trade route to York.

Iron Working was researched on Turn 96 and I had access turn Iron on Turn 99.

I managed to pop three goodie huts and got some experience for my scout and close to 180g - that was the bit of luck in the game - and no random event setbacks. So this is doable as long as the goodie huts pop some gold.

EDIT: I also loaded Neal's game and played it forward a bit.

Spoiler :

Ulundi reached Size 7 on Turn 103 and had access to Iron. So with his setbacks and everything, he is just a few turns behind where he could be and the game is still very much playable. How he proceeds will be up to his choice of style.

Also, he should move those two scouts because he will not need them for fogbusting much longer. He should contact all the civilizations in Europe and Asia.

Based on that, it is not important to build the second city in a production center - Ulundi already has massive production and trade potential.

Regarding the Settler, I am still suggesting Cape Town for lack of better spots - It will only have 3 production, but it will generate a good bit of trade and eventually you can build the Moai Statues and work 14 water tiles. In the mean time, it will help with the early tech race.

Regarding production, I think the second worker is a good choice. There is not much point in growing the city until a granary is built. The second worker can help out with developing the land. You are going to need that grasslands farm also.

Regarding the first worker, you need to move it to mine the copper instead of the gems.

For Research, I suggest Pottery followed by Writing and Sailing. Then research Iron Working and then Alphabet, Currenty, Code of Laws. That should ease your problem of occupying bad city sites.

After that, I suggest Mathematics and Construction for Catapults.

What do you think of sending an Impi on a world tour?

 

[Neal]

Annnd I'm back!

I agree with everyone saying that my strategy has been completely suboptimal for an early rush. Normally, I would shrug my shoulders, consider those early moves a learning experience, and restart. But, well, two things made me stick with it:

1) India going down was too fascinating to lose to a restart. I just want to see this through to observe the effects. Kind of like my fascination with the New World changes in the Saladin game.

2) All of our military-oriented games thus far have been so easy, even on Emperor. I don't really want another boring old game of lining the ducks up in neat rows and then plinking them down for a high score. So, between random events, my less-than-perfect opening strategy, and the natural obstacles thrown in our path by our junky starting position, we'll probably have to scramble a bit. I welcome it. Maybe we'll end up being crushed under the Immortal hordes of a Super-Darius. That would be AWESOME. A spectacular defeat would be just as helpful an educational tool as yet another rousing victory, if not moreso. And if we can pull this off, it'll be proof that even less than perfect starts can be salvaged.

So I think I'm going to send our Settler north to try to claim those luxury metals, and I'm going to build up a few Impis and Axes to give Zara Yaqob a splitting, piercing headache. At the very least, this should beat back his cultural pressure. After that, I'm going to play nice for a while amassing a proper force that would be capable of wrestling with Egypt. I may even try to include Catapults. If I've been beaten to our city site by Ethiopia, well, so be it. I'll send the Settler to set up Cape Town and prepare for war proper.

So, yeah. This game isn't perfect. But perfect all the time is boring. Not that I don't appreciate the comments. I do use them more often than not, and everyone pointing out what I'm doing wrong makes these games, y'know, useful (usually, I'm just trying to be entertaining).

The next round will be up sometime Sunday or Monday. Time to see just how hopeless things are.

 

[Harv]

Annnd I'm back!


So I think I'm going to send our Settler north to try to claim those luxury metals, and I'm going to build up a few Impis and Axes to give Zara Yaqob a splitting, piercing headache. At the very least, this should beat back his cultural pressure. After that, I'm going to play nice for a while amassing a proper force that would be capable of wrestling with Egypt. I may even try to include Catapults. If I've been beaten to our city site by Ethiopia, well, so be it. I'll send the Settler to set up Cape Town and prepare for war proper.

. . . .

The next round will be up sometime Sunday or Monday. Time to see just how hopeless things are.

I look forward to it!

Really, I do not think things are *nearly* as hopeless as people are making them out to be. Ulundi is simply *that* powerful!

Regarding the move north, what do you think of one of the plains/river/hills next to the Elephants? You miss on the Silver, but you pick up an extra production and have your city one or two squares closer to Ulundi. Besides, if you claim both the Elephants and Silver in the BFC, where do you get food to work them both? It is just a suggestion.

In the mean time, I will watch and learn.

 

[Neal]

All right, let's get back to it.

I began by founding Nairobi, which I remember being a middling-to-decent city in the Saladin game:

Nairobi is under considerable cultural pressure, but it's nothing that a little bit of the old ultra-violence can't solve.

In 1925 B.C., The random number generator showed mercy on the benighted Zulu people and gave us back some of those beakers they'd stolen from us:

Of course, with the snowballing effects of early bonuses and penalties, we still come out behind, but we're no longer as behind as we were before. I guess.

So I switched the Worker to hooking up the Bronze and started pumping out Impis. Once I had three of them ready to rock, I figured it was time to start chipping away at those ugly green borders keeping Nairobi from realizing its potential:

I'm glad I brought three. Those accursed Warriors traded their clubs for axes as my jungle soldiers closed in.

There were heavy casualties, but we got the job done:

Not a great city by any stretch of the imagination, but with a few farms and some windmills in the future, I think it can at least pay for itself.

With my warmaking capacity spent, I figured it was time to call off the dogs:

I, of course, used the break in the action to train replacements.

Cute tangent alert- In 1400 B.C., after I'd signed Open Borders with pretty much everyone, some Arab sailors found themselves lost in Lake Victoria:

I totally should have closed the borders and stranded them.

All right. Back on track. After restocking my forces of Impi, it was time to declare the Second Ethiopian War:

Of course, the single Archer defending Lalibela was quickly supplemented by an Axeman, but neither was promoted. And I had five promoted Impi.

We once again suffered major losses, but came out on top:

I believe this restricts Mr. Yaqob to his capitol, which is the next target. I don't know that I want to suffer the diplomatic penalties for declaring war for a third time, so the plan is to keep up a state of phony war until I have a proper army once again.

Oh, before the fall of Lalibela, we found religion. Or, rather, it found us:

Hinduism seems to be the major bloc, so I'll gladly join the cool kids' club for the Diplomacy benefits.

So here's a look at the world as we know it:

The astute observer will note that Egypt seems to have built the Great Wall for us... I mean, for themselves. This makes Ramesses an even more attractive target than he already was. I think our first order of business, though, remains crushing the Ethiopian remnant.

Here's the Diplomatic situation:

Pretty reasonable, all around. No real friends, but no enemies, either. Except for Zara, of course.

So, what do you all think? Put Ethiopia to the torch and then set our hungry eyes on Egypt? I must say, things certainly seem to be in better shape now than they were at the end of last round.

Here's the save (remember to Load the Mod first):

 

[Fetch]

Yes! Egypt has to go. Impis are spearmen at heart and get a bonus against war chariots. Kill!

 

[Jaaboo]

Wooo hooo, we're back!

Nice, simple, effective. I think a push into Egypt will pay off nicely - Africa teems with Barbarians much like South America does and a push into Thebes makes them Mansa's problem. Ulundi seems to have no issues pumping out Impis and Zara is contained. At best he founds a few more cities for you. I would think Thebes or Memphis is your next target.

But you want a cultural victory so religions should be key for you. Mansa will likely found a religion for you (Conf. or Christianity) and here's hoping that Issy has founded Buddhism. If so, it should be able to spread to you quickly. Taoism always seems to go to England but maybe you can bulb it away from her. If you want all 7 religions, you need to hope that Monty hasn't founded Buddhism and that Conf gets founded on European or African shores, I've found.

 

[Soirana]

given situation i would have considered early Sailing
Food, decreased need for roading, trade routes.

Don't know about Nairobi... Now it is probably best to pick crabs from madagascar.

Any good reason not to go with Ikhanda first in Gondar? See something extreme in second ring?

Good job. Three more cities and not a single food source. Way to go...

 

[slobberinbear]

Nice, economical use of the impis, Neal. You seemed to have just enough to get the job done. That's efficiency, and probably cheaper than building settlers and settling those cities yourself. Well done. I presume Zara will be taken with a sword assault?

A critique: I would quibble with you on the location of Nairobi. IMO, you should have settled it 1E of its current location to get the crabs. You are so food-starved on this map that getting the crabs is more important than the silver (which was reachable from a city site to the southwest of the lake).

 

[Neal]

re: the location of Nairobi- I know from the Saladin game that that site can work both the Silver and the Gems, and that's kind of the point of Nairobi. It's not perfect, but it works. Yes, the Crabs will belong to a future Madagascar city. Oh, and Slobberin'- Do you mean 1SE? 1E still misses the crabs...

re: Future war- Construction is just around the corner, and Gondar was conveniently founded atop a source of Ivory. I'm actually thinking we might skip Swordsmen altogether in favor of a Catapult/War Elephant juggernaut augmented with fast-hitting Impi skirmishers. Is that crazy? I've never done a Jumbo-heavy army, but this seems like the perfect opportunity to try it.

re: Techs- Yeah, Sailing is up there, along with Iron Working. I just figure that grabbing Construction this early can give us a massive military advantage, along with the ability to upgrade our transportation infrastructure with bridges. Our corner of the world has WAY too many rivers...

re: Monument first in Gondar- I guess that now that the city has the State Religion, the Monument isn't strictly necessary, but it was halfway done when Hinduism spread, and I have an irrational fear of the implacable march of Creative borders.

re: Religions- I should have pointed this out, but Gondar has Hinduism (which was founded by Saladin, and seems to be the One True Faith), Lalibela has Buddhism (which was probably founded by Isabella), and Mansa Musa has founded Judaism. So it would appear that the New World is still living in pagan darkness, and our long-term goal of collecting as many religions as possible seems to be off to a good start.

re: Zara- Yeah, he doesn't need to be crushed now, but I really don't want to see him scamper off to southeast Asia or something and become another Hatshepsut, y'know?

 

[Civman33]

Exellent! Good game going on so far. And it's good that you took some land off of Zara

 

[pigswill]

If the resources are the same as the Earth 18 map (and they look to be so far but haven't loaded the mod) then Nairobi could have gone one south for the crabs and silver and you could then have built a city in Somalia to grab the gems and another food source iirc.

 

[Jaaboo]

Lalibela has Buddhism (which was probably founded by Isabella)

Yeah I saw that after I posted, and you're most likely right.

 

[DMOC]

I would not have kept Laibela (that jungle city) because what can it do for you? I would have razed it. I also would have gotten more impis ready to kill Zara the first time you declared war (enough to kill him off completely). As of now, get impis ASAP and kill of Zara and go for Ramesses.

 

[Stewie0416]

How many workers do you have? We don't want a repeat of the Izzy game now do we?