King of the World #8: Shaka

[huerfanista]

1.
2. Cheese is right - they start with warriors just like Earth18.
3. It's not so great - 1 spice. Sal always goes for it fairly early.
4. Don't agree - impis are quite competant at taking cities defended by non-CG archers on flatland. This means they have to be used EARLY. It also helps to get the first couple of impis out earning XP from animals/barbs so you get a couple to CR2. They can be healed wile the rest of the stack is catching up. Marching axes and swords for 23 turns to Thebes is not my idea of a rush. 6 impis will easily take down Ram if they're early (around 2000BC). And don't count on Ram building ANY wonders for you.

Spoiler :

I've played this scenario 3 times with 3 different starategies - very early rush, early rush, later (swords/cats) war - and he never built a single wonder for me.

5. Agree.
6.

Spoiler :

Asia, China is nerfed,

In one of my games Mao vassaled most of Asia and the middle east and DOWed me with 2x my power. Not pretty. With India gone, China could be huge - or Persia.

Probably your greatest threats will come from Russia/South America.

HC never expands into Brazil. The AI is too stoopid to figger out boatz. Stalin isn't as good as Cath in dominating (and he isn't as good-looking as the dominatrix ).

 

[huerfanista]

The AI never start with extra techs in scenarios. Furthermore, even when they learn the techs, they won't use them properly. For example, you are liable to see Thebes defended with one archer and two warriors instead of three archers.

Yep, that's been my experience.

 

[Abegweit]

Yep, that's been my experience.

So why aren't you capable of crushing them in this scenario? Even on Monarch? Five Impis should take a civ like that apart.

 

[Harv]

Having looked at Neal's save, I'm a bit confused about where he's going here.

Honestly, I think that Shaka's early military advantages have been wasted. . . . . Any wars will be expensive at this point, and will need swordsmen (with the possible exception of Zara). . . . I've tried this scenario at monarch a couple of times, and it's a bear even with a successful early rush (impi rush isn't that hard, TBH, at least on monarch - but you do have to beeline it). I'll be watching with interest.

I agree with the criticism that the chances of a successful early rush are harmed, but this is still very early in the game. Neal's opening research was Fishing-Mining-Animal Husbandry-Bronze Working and he is finishing The Wheel. His opening production is Fishing Boats-Worker-Ikhanda-Warrior-Warrior-Settler and he is starting production on something.

Shaka's early military advantage wasted? I do not know - He will have Axes, Impis, and Swords all with Combat I and one more promotion and for quite some time his stiffest opposition will be Archers with City Garrison. Neal will have no problem taking over Africa - All he wasted was the opportunity to launch Impis at completely defenseless cities. It just means the Africa campaign will be carefully thought out and executed wars.

I really have only two very minor critiques about this opening: One is that Neal should have researched Bronze Working third. The other is that he should be mining the copper instead of the gems.

Also, the RNG proved to be the harshest critic. He lost the cow pasture the turn he built it and then had his BW research delayed. All Neal really had to do was reload an early save and do something *slightly* different to throw the preserved RNG Seed - But the fact that he posted these early setbacks shows that he has perseverance.

Neal probably started this scenario blind, without looking at the WB, and did not know that there would be Copper in his BFC. Therefore he decided to research AH before BW to take advantage of a resource he knew he had already.

Regarding the criticism about his choice of building workers and settlers and stunting city growth, his choices of what to build at this moment (while allowing the city to grow) are as follows:
1. Warrior
2. Scout
3. Fishing Boats

If he moves that worker *NOW* and starts mining the copper, he will have a copper mine up and running in 12 turns. Then he will be able to build Impis and Axes. This is *precisely* the reason I thought he was going to research Bronze Working third instead of fourth - He would have that copper mine working now and he would be building his army of Impis.

In 11 turns, he should be able to research Pottery. Then he can build a granary which will ease the lack of food Ulundi suffers from. In the mean time, he might as well build the other worker and maybe a warrior and start another warrior. On the 12th turn, the chop will come and nearly finish that granary if you stop what you are doing and build the granary when you research Pottery.

Your Impis will come just in time for the first rush of Barbarian Warriors.

Regarding the second city, there are no good production sites. I am thinking you can settle either (-4,-2) or (-5,-2) around Cape Town, depending on whether you prefer to have Whales in your BFC or Grassland/Forest. Failing a good production site, you can go for some Gems and boost your research.

Your early research is going to be surprisingly fast - but you will need to expand somehow. I recommend researching The Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing-Iron Working.

 

[slobberinbear]

I think everyone agrees that cities need to be added soon -- Shaka's, or someone else's.

In the short term, there is nothing wrong with settling one or two early cities. They can be productive and linked up to the trade network quickly and can block the AI and make a few units.

I was unaware that the AI starts with warriors instead of archers in scenarios at this difficulty. Good to know. Frankly, I would have found an Impi vs. Warrior rush fairly ridiculous at Emperor anyway, but to each his own.

 

[Belisar]

@ IPEX, your point 6 about global developement is way off:

Spoiler :

Like Huyana, the northern American civs don't settle South America, it is blocked by a mountain. Due to a bug in the code, AIs consider it as the same landmass and don't send settlers per boat.
Pacal will soon be part of Monty's empire.
South America will become a European colony after Astronomy, Shaka actually has a good shot at it if Neal want's to take it (see Musa game).

Russia has a slow-growing capital and the Europeans / Middle East civs are totally boxed in, together this means Stalin will be swarmed with settlers, by 500BC Russia's 3 or 4 cities will be surrounded from all sides.

 

[CHEESE!]

Monty WILL be a beast in this, no exception. Lincoln and SB haven't a chance, unless the good old BARB UPRISING comes to town.

 

[Civman33]

I'd rather attempt to eliminate Zara, his culture will flow like the Mississipi River! It's pretty dangerous against Ramesses, his war chariots could sometimes slaughter your impi. However, you should expand to the west, it has more grassland.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Lincoln and SB haven't a chance,

Not so sure about SB. Super-Protective Archers + Dog Soliders, who eat Jags for breakfast...

 

[Jaaboo]

Almost makes one wish Neal had done the same terraforming he did in the Saladin game.

 

[CHEESE!]

Well, SB manages always to lose when I cheat and play Rome. In my last game, SB Kaputulated to Monty. Its when they both are hopelessly backward, but monty has his gadzillion billion million units, and SB just falls.

 

[huerfanista]

So why aren't you capable of crushing them in this scenario? Even on Monarch? Five Impis should take a civ like that apart.

It's because of the huge distances between Shaka and everyone else. Even with impis it's takes a couple of centuries to get to your target. The AIs usually have a mix of warriors and a couple of archers by the time you get there. However, they rarely have a barracks built, so no CG archers. This is doable with impis. Rameses is a piece of cake, Zara is harder since he researches archery sooner and his cities are usually on hills. That's why I target him first. Mansa would be doable if you targeted him first, but he gets skirmishers early, and they're 4 strength archers - too tough for impis (and even hard for swords unless they're CR2+). The downside is that you really have no economy and huge distance maintenance. Egypt is a must - it's the only good land around. If you cottage all those FPs you get get a real economy going (and maybe build the 'mids if you're quick).

EDIT: BTW, if you want a fun game on this scenario, play Rameses. By 500BC I had 5 AI capitals (Gilga, Sal, Mehemed, Hammi, and Cyrus - in that order) and 180bpt. It's nearly as good as playing Rome.

 

[GeorgeF]

Plan on moving the cap ASAP to Egypt's second city near the elephants, for maintenance.

 

[Abegweit]

It's because of the huge distances between Shaka and everyone else. Even with impis it's takes a couple of centuries to get to your target.

Then build a road. I mean it. Takes two workers and a thousand years but they get there. The road will have many uses after the wars too. Don't you want to connect your cities?

 

[huerfanista]

Then build a road. I mean it. Takes two workers and a thousand years but they get there. The road will have many uses after the wars too. Don't you want to connect your cities?

Well, you were talking about why an early impi rush wouldn't always succeed. What on earth does building a road for a thousand years have to do with an early rush? OFC you're going to connect your cities later on.

 

[Abegweit]

Well, you were talking about why an early impi rush wouldn't always succeed. What on earth does building a road for a thousand years have to do with an early rush? OFC you're going to connect your cities later on.

No. I wasn't talking about an early Impi rush. YOU were. When I pushed out an early settler and a road, I had axes and swords in the mix. I think an early Impi rush is cheesy when the AI has no defence so I did no go that that route.

I was bugged by your claim that you can't get the troops to the front in time so I tried the pure rush. It's cheesy but it definitely works. Playing on Emperor like Neil. I also had my road in place at about the time I finished Rameses off. Opening moves are so critical.

 

[huerfanista]

@Abegweit

Sorry, but I just don't understand what your point is here. Of course you can take down Rameses with axes and swords. You can take him down knights and trebs, with rifles and cannon, or with tanks and bombers. So what? The only difference is a few thousand years. If you think it's cheesy to attack pre-2000BC with impis, that's your call. Some might think it's cheesy to attack an AI that doesn't have metals with metal-based units; fine, wait until gunpowder. If you want to settle a couple of cities on that crappy land in south Africa before you attack, and build nice roads for your units, that's fine, too, and OFC it will work if you plan well. All I was pointing out is that IF you are going to attack with impis only (which is a tactics decision that some will think is cheesy and others will think is valid), you better get it done before 2000BC, otherwise you'll be going up against CG archers. Can you do it (i.e., attack CG archers with impis) anyway? Of course. You'll just waste a lot of building units that will die. Decisions about whether to attack very early, early, middle, or late are what make this game interesting. Neal has already made the decision not to go for a very early rush - that's his prerogative. I think it's a mistake (that's my prerogative), but what do I know? I've already admitted that I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier when it comes to civ. Can Neal win by taking over africa in the ADs instead of the BCs? I don't know. I guess we're about to find out.

 

[slobberinbear]

To me, the only cheesy rush is a warrior rush. If you take the time to research military techs and hook up resources, and can deliver units to the enemy cities, then that's legit.

So in this game, I see nothing wrong with an Impi rush. Their movement bonus is huge on this map.

I suppose what chafes a bit, though, is the idea that somehow Neal has messed up this game (or made it harder on himself) by building a settler before his impi stack. Denying AI city sites and grabbing resources is a legitimate strategy, even if it sets back the rush a little.

 

[Abegweit]

Any early rush on a scenario is cheesy. Emperor AI cities are not supposed to be defended by warriors. The only reason to use Impis here instead of warriors is that the AI is so far away.

As for the way Neal has played the game, my biggest objection is that he only has one worker. What's more peaceful growth, which seems to be what Neal is doing, will work. Sure the lands are crappy but every AI within thousands of miles has even worse.

Early war has to be in the game because you have to break out and at least claim all of Africa. But it can wait until jumbos and pults. It should really because both Musa (skirmishers) and Zara (creative in the mountains) will be tough.

On looking at this again, I think it's too late for a Rameses rush. So peaceful growth is the near future. Grab both gems, a phant and the western fishies. Then beeline construction.

 

[Abegweit]

All I was pointing out is that IF you are going to attack with impis only (which is a tactics decision that some will think is cheesy and others will think is valid), you better get it done before 2000BC, otherwise you'll be going up against CG archers. Can you do it (i.e., attack CG archers with impis) anyway?

I think this is where you go wrong. You go too early. Get up a proper attack force (about 10 vets) and keep pumping more out. You'll find about one fortified archer and two whipped in the entire civ. If one has CG, it's probably one of the whipped.

Try this opening:

Research order:
Fishing-Mining-BW-AH-TW-Pots-Writing

Build order:
Inkanda until fishing comes in.
Switch to a workboat.
Back to the Inkanda until size 2
Then two workers
Finish off the Inkanda and build Impis forever
Squeeze a granary in somewhere.

The workers improve the homelands. The copper is priority one. Kill all the trees. After you have finished making an ecological disaster zone, work on your road to Egypt. Zara will likely help. By the time you get to Ethiopia, you can open borders.

The workers and the first wave of Impis should arrive at Rameses' door at about the same time. Aren't you so nice to give the workers to the Egyptians so they can build up their lands properly?