Kingdom Come: Deception (Game Thread)

[RRRaskolnikov]

People I didn't mention are people I barely noticed (no puns intended)

Like you, I am not fond of it, but that's where wagonomics can help imo. May compil all tallies in one post (@Winston Hughes style) l8r today.

 

[Marcher Jovian]

in no particular order:

Timsup2nothin - very active. postings have felt a bit tunnel-y but has also shown the uncertainty and willingness to reconsider that I'd typically ascribe to town.
Lord Argon - early shenanigans have mostly leveled out and has
Topsecret
Takhisis - has pretty much claimed survivor and I'm inclined to believe it.
Pzelda -
Rrraskolnikov - has been sorta 'in the middle' this game, talking and making reads more than the inactive people, but less than the active people. Gets a few points for consistency when claiming to to just be voting LA to see what happens, but very quickly switching votes once Tak made himself a lynch target by claiming survivor
JohannaK - started off quiet, but has begun stepping up the posting and analysis, and is willing to put himself out there making reads and giving out his own takes on situations
Csargo
Dolbster - started the lynch against against a townie, which is always suspicious. on the other hand, Rakkoon wasn't exactly acting the most townie, and a misread was certainly possible. on the third hand, mafia jumping on a suspicious-looking townie and getting them lynched is a tale as old as time. I'd still probably rate him as the person I'm most suspicious of and the only thing stopping me from voting right now is a fear that everyone just piles on in a 10-0 vote and we get no more information from the day.
GamezRule - very quiet, with only a few short posts,
Samson - has been kinda quiet, doing some ok analysis here and there, and all his votes were either inactivity pressures or bandwagon-jumping but that might just be from being new. the post number observation is probably the biggest point in his favor because it shows the kind of close observation I'd ascribe more to town, but it's still only one post, he isn't giving much to go on besides that, and I'd like to see more activity and analysis
Golden1Knight - not really liking the play so far. all his votes have just been jumping onto ongoing lynches and saying he agrees with the wagon-starter, with no unique analysis. If you didn't like Rakkoon's wagon why did you join it rather than voting for whoever you found most suspicious?

 

[Marcher Jovian]

post accidentally sent early, will follow up with rest

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Ok, I've just reread most of topsecret's Franklin posts and this game posts.

There are some differences but not those TS pointed out imo. Here he seems to put much less effort at looking not knowledgeable than what he did in Franklin.
But some stuffs are the same. Random inquiries and wolfy posts (imo, see my D1 posts about it)... but that could be just play style (though Visor had the same reaction than me about those posts) .

Some questions remain still, I would like to see other people taking a look at:

1) on contrary to what he claims, TS is definatly trying to control the narrative when he is under the radar:

Spoiler :

You'll notice there that I used hints and twisted influence, versus in this game I've been more open-ended in questions. What do you think? is different than trying to control the narrative.

(rereading this put a big smile on my face. "see, I don't do what I am precisaly doing rn" I wish I had called you out for it yesterday)

Nope. I want answers. I just approach differently. You accuse/vote people to see reactions. I ask questions. It's less intrusive (shallow as Tim calls it). But it's how I look at reactions.

You can lynch me now, but I am innocent. Or you can just kill me later, Master Visor.

2) TS talks a lot with/about his old scum buddies.

Spoiler :

But I do get a slight town-vibe on pzelda because he's got that solvy feel. When he's scum, he doesn't like posting.

Town Leans
Csargo - More participation than his last few games as mafia
Visorslash - Typical Visor operation, even if he's dead wrong about me.
Pzelda - Feels like he is solving better than our game with him as a partner.

------

Spoiler :

In a world where you are wolf, it's convenient for you if I die because I (and pzelda) played with you as partners. I know (somewhat) how you thought as a wolf.

Doesn't mean you are a wolf, but that thought occurred to me.

I wasn't mentioning different style. Just commenting on why you could possibly want me dead.

These might be diversions.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Rereading, I found this gem:

And my first thought as a wolf was "I am stuck, my play style is established and distinctive and I will have to play this out exactly the same way." And I proceeded to do that. And it worked. Since you know how I thought as a wolf do you see any good reason why I would try playing differently this game if I was a wolf?

You changing from your usual (and proved effective) town play Tim?

 

[Marcher Jovian]

LordArgon - the early shenanigans were a bit odd, though apparently this is pretty typical from him. has mostly leveled out and started contributing now. The second person to vote for Rakkoon and get that wagon rolling. looking back at that vote, I don't like how he called out Rakkoon for "horrible logic" but didn't actually explicitly give an example in-post. one of the most suspicious
Topsecret - feeling mixed signals. on one hand, has been willing to make reads and give analysis of players, on the other hand, I don't quite buy the complaints about not being trusted and the post about how he feels he's more seen as more suspect as town than as mafia, it feels like it's trying a bit too hard to be seen as a complaining townie
Pzelda - Active and making reads and analysis. somewhat independent, with starting a vote for Samson but at least backing it up with decent rationale. looks a lot better now that Rakkoon's turned out town
Csargo - has a tendency to call out other people for inconsistencies and messy logic. has given a bit analysis of his own as well, though not a ton. I don't really like how he says he's voting based on gut or feelings
Gamezrule - quiet with only a few posts, has multiple times said he's lost/confused about what's going on, though this makes sense with finals, it's still suspicious and there isn't exactly much else to base an opinion on

 

[JohannaK]

Oh wow, I just realise I forgot about talking about Topsecret. It's true that he's uneven, but I feel he's genuine. I put him in the middle of the pack.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I forgot about voting him myself.

vote: topsecret

 

[topsecret]

I forgot about voting him myself.

vote: topsecret

:wave:

Like you, I am not fond of it, but that's where wagonomics can help imo. May compil all tallies in one post (@Winston Hughes style) l8r today.

We should especially do one right before Rakkoon became a runaway (it was near EoD).

 

[topsecret]

I forgot about voting him myself.

vote: topsecret

Apparently it's and not :wave:

:brickwall:

 

[topsecret]

Apparently it's and not :wave:

:brickwall:

Can't win for losing on my smilies.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Can't win for losing on my smilies.

Any comments on the posts though?

 

[Golden1Knight]

@Golden1Knight what do you think of Topsecret, Dolbster, and Raskol? If they were the wagons and you had the deciding vote who would you lynch?

By the way, can you read?

Ok, let's go then

Topsecret:

In post 438, said he was going to vote either for me (for my "nail in the coffin") or Csargo on D2. After my reply about nailing the coffin not being scummy, he gave up on me. He changes his mind about Csargo as well in post 488. In that post he made a read on me stating "The ol' nail in the coffin theory. Not enough for a lynch though, imo."

Weird. First the nail in the coffin stuff was enough for a lynch, now it isnt. Just like that. Maybe the idea didn’t have the repercussions he wanted.

Also, that nail in the coffin action was not wolfy by any means, now that I see it clearly. Why the heck would a wolf jump on a wagon to visibly kill a townie like that? If said wolf just wanted Rakkoon's death, he would just let the wagon follow it's own course (Rakkoon's wagon was already on the lead) and stay low, and IF he really wanted to see the poor priest dead he would atleast wait someone tie the vote before making the fatal jump to ensure the kill. The only other reason for a wolf to expose himself like that would be to save his wolf buddy and, again, before making that drastic move he would atleast wait for a tie to happen. Still a kinda weird and stupid move however, so all this "nail in the coffin" theory seems quite unlikely and that is something that a veteran would clearly see (like Tim noted, if I recall).

All that makes me think if TS just wanted an easy town lynch for D2 by considering to kickstart that me-wagon, but now Dolbster vote seems more achievable since he was the "wagon-starter".

Outside that reasoning about the nail the coffin theory, his "Don't know. I was suspicious last night, but maybe switching away from Gamez wasn't a big deal" read on Csargo (post 488) dont really help with that feeling either.

I dont really have much else to say about him. Just feels wolfy.

Dolbster:

Well, starting a town-killing wagon could be read as scummy, but that's it. Worth a vote only if there are no better options since it's kind of a long shot. Better than nothing still.

Also, all that samson worship is weird. Dolbster places me as major lynch candidate on post 443 (he doenst really says why, maybe due to my jump to Rakkoon's wagon) but keeps samson on his town read despite he being the one who put Rakkoon's wagon on the lead. Regarding Samson, on post 445 Dolb says "hammering town (ie putting town ahead), regardless of if it's tvt or tvs, just seems to brazen for new scum", but then why read me as scummy?


Raskol:

Didn't like his votes on LA and Tak, and his D1 posts just felt scummy. Looking more townie on D2 however. Nothing solid, need to analyze further.

-------

Between those 3, I'd lynch TS. Maybe I'll vote on him today, just waiting to see how things develop first.

And yes, I am literate. Don't know what that implies yet.

Good morning!



I would like to reread the thread myself, if I'missing something. But I'd like to hear your take too (if there's more to it. Sometimes someone sounding pure is good enough).



I gotta townread Tim for this. It's his classical wifom. Also, there'd be no reason for him to stop pursuing tak's tail if he were scum.



I can't recall a single post from Gamez. He might be a good option.



So, Have you forgotten how to read since yesterday? Maybe little beating will remind you.

VOTE: LORDARGON
UNVOTE



You could always try to get off the ground another wagon. I don't really vote people I don't find in one way or another suspicious. What did you dislike on Rakkoon's wagon?

Rakkoon's wagon wasnt worse or better than anyone else's at the moment, barring Tak's wagon. Also, voting on a minor wagon does not help town and is a typical scum behaviour.

in no particular order:

Timsup2nothin - very active. postings have felt a bit tunnel-y but has also shown the uncertainty and willingness to reconsider that I'd typically ascribe to town.
Lord Argon - early shenanigans have mostly leveled out and has
Topsecret
Takhisis - has pretty much claimed survivor and I'm inclined to believe it.
Pzelda -
Rrraskolnikov - has been sorta 'in the middle' this game, talking and making reads more than the inactive people, but less than the active people. Gets a few points for consistency when claiming to to just be voting LA to see what happens, but very quickly switching votes once Tak made himself a lynch target by claiming survivor
JohannaK - started off quiet, but has begun stepping up the posting and analysis, and is willing to put himself out there making reads and giving out his own takes on situations
Csargo
Dolbster - started the lynch against against a townie, which is always suspicious. on the other hand, Rakkoon wasn't exactly acting the most townie, and a misread was certainly possible. on the third hand, mafia jumping on a suspicious-looking townie and getting them lynched is a tale as old as time. I'd still probably rate him as the person I'm most suspicious of and the only thing stopping me from voting right now is a fear that everyone just piles on in a 10-0 vote and we get no more information from the day.
GamezRule - very quiet, with only a few short posts,
Samson - has been kinda quiet, doing some ok analysis here and there, and all his votes were either inactivity pressures or bandwagon-jumping but that might just be from being new. the post number observation is probably the biggest point in his favor because it shows the kind of close observation I'd ascribe more to town, but it's still only one post, he isn't giving much to go on besides that, and I'd like to see more activity and analysis
Golden1Knight - not really liking the play so far. all his votes have just been jumping onto ongoing lynches and saying he agrees with the wagon-starter, with no unique analysis. If you didn't like Rakkoon's wagon why did you join it rather than voting for whoever you found most suspicious?

Same as above. No high suspects on D1.

Spoiler :

!horsehockey english alert!, wrote everything in a hurry

 

[topsecret]

Any comments on the posts though?

I don't know what there is to say, really. I think the main reason you think I am scummy is because I overreacted to pressure. I'll admit it. But I'm not a wolf. I feel like anything else I say would mostly be taken as yet another reason to be wolfy.

Ok, let's go then

Topsecret:

In post 438, said he was going to vote either for me (for my "nail in the coffin") or Csargo on D2. After my reply about nailing the coffin not being scummy, he gave up on me. He changes his mind about Csargo as well in post 488. In that post he made a read on me stating "The ol' nail in the coffin theory. Not enough for a lynch though, imo."

Weird. First the nail in the coffin stuff was enough for a lynch, now it isnt. Just like that. Maybe the idea didn’t have the repercussions he wanted.

Also, that nail in the coffin action was not wolfy by any means, now that I see it clearly. Why the heck would a wolf jump on a wagon to visibly kill a townie like that? If said wolf just wanted Rakkoon's death, he would just let the wagon follow it's own course (Rakkoon's wagon was already on the lead) and stay low, and IF he really wanted to see the poor priest dead he would atleast wait someone tie the vote before making the fatal jump to ensure the kill. The only other reason for a wolf to expose himself like that would be to save his wolf buddy and, again, before making that drastic move he would atleast wait for a tie to happen. Still a kinda weird and stupid move however, so all this "nail in the coffin" theory seems quite unlikely and that is something that a veteran would clearly see (like Tim noted, if I recall).

All that makes me think if TS just wanted an easy town lynch for D2 by considering to kickstart that me-wagon, but now Dolbster vote seems more achievable since he was the "wagon-starter".

Outside that reasoning about the nail the coffin theory, his "Don't know. I was suspicious last night, but maybe switching away from Gamez wasn't a big deal" read on Csargo (post 488) dont really help with that feeling either.

I dont really have much else to say about him. Just feels wolfy.

I just changed my mind after thinking about it. I don't actually think Dolbster is more "achieveable." That's insinuating I am indeed a wolf, but yet you won't vote for me?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You changing from your usual (and proved effective) town play Tim?

Yeah, because it wasn't proved effective. It worked one time out of three. It proved very effective at setting me up to powerwolf when I randed wolf, and if I had randed wolf I'd have gone right to work powerwolfing again. Since I didn't I took a new approach to playing town.

Speaking of powerwolfing in Franklin...when you are comparing play by Topsecret keep in mind that in Franklin he was dealing with brand new wolf me in the wolf room. If he is a wolf here he is going to be a bit different wolf because there's less chaos for him to contend with.

Dolbster:

Well, starting a town-killing wagon could be read as scummy, but that's it. Worth a vote only if there are no better options since it's kind of a long shot. Better than nothing still.

Thank you for answering my question in detail. I invite you to consider one point in addition to starting the town killing wagon; which is how it kept going. You jumped on. Why? It ran away. Why? I was actually past wanting to Lynch Tak and looking for a place to go, and Dolbster cheerfully made his case on the already overloaded Rakkoon wagon, which he apparently thought was a good case. Why? Why would he want me to join his already running away wagon? I'm a lot less concerned about him starting a wagon on a townie, heck I do that all the time...that's what people are questioning me about here now because I have been trying not to.

I'm concerned about how he drove that wagon home with such certainty. He knows a runaway wagon is bad for wagonomics, but he was so certain about Rakkoon that he was still pulling people on board even after it was running away. There are respected analysts in this game who never backed his case at all, but he was so certain about it being solid that he never wavered a bit.

And when I asked him specifically about this certainty, and asked Pzelda about something crazy...he answered for Pzelda that I am indeed crazy but never addressed my issue with him.

 

[pzelda]

I'm holding my vote until I actually see something I don't like.

By the way, can someone explain why Rakkoon was murdered? There was nothing so obvious about him to justify the size of that wagon.

There wasn't anything or anyone to shake off the votes.

 

[pzelda]

Rereading, I found this gem:





You changing from your usual (and proved effective) town play Tim?

Yeah, that one's gem and probably the reason I was so hesitant to change my read. I think that his earlier willingness to stop tunneling Tak is a good sign. Wolf doesn't have a reason to stop tunneling town and Tim was way too much into lynching Tak yesterday to be his partner in crime.

Golden1Knight - not really liking the play so far. all his votes have just been jumping onto ongoing lynches and saying he agrees with the wagon-starter, with no unique analysis. If you didn't like Rakkoon's wagon why did you join it rather than voting for whoever you found most suspicious?

Ok, there are several things I find lacking on your list. If you have a question for Knight, you should make it visible, make it a separate post if possible. You don't have any suspects. Name your top 3 wolves, so we can discuss a little. Without scumreads it feels like you made a list for sake of making a list.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Hey @RRRaskolnikov and @pzelda, since he isn't here to defend himself what do you think of @Samson so far?

Oh, and @topsecret could you explain why you gave that reads list on page 8? It's kind of empty, really so I'm curious what prompted it. Also you had Rakkoon at the deepest level in scum, could you explain how he got there? Thanks.

 

[pzelda]

Rakkoon's wagon wasnt worse or better than anyone else's at the moment, barring Tak's wagon. Also, voting on a minor wagon does not help town and is a typical scum behaviour.

That's true. Wagonomics clearly aren't the way to go here.
Also, there are some good points made by you. Dolbster defending Samson for example. I think that it's more likely a naive read from Dolbster (I used to defend pure tone a lot too).

Hey @RRRaskolnikov and @pzelda, since he isn't here to defend himself what do you think of @Samson so far?

Oh, and @topsecret could you explain why you gave that reads list on page 8? It's kind of empty, really so I'm curious what prompted it. Also you had Rakkoon at the deepest level in scum, could you explain how he got there? Thanks.

I admit I haven't returned to his posts yet. I think he was bandwagonning yesterday and that Dolbster defended it for some reason. I also remember his early activity being voting players, who haven't posted yet. Jolly and non-committal. The one thing i need to take a proper look at was his wall of reads (Jovian's reads are quite weak btw).

One more thing, I'm starting to regret that I gave Ts such an early townread. I think he's struggling today.

 

[Dolbster]

Eh I’ll talk about Tims issue with me. First of all, I really don’t think that you blew large holes into my case, and most of it was basically “but that behavior could be townie”. You admitted at the end of that that you’d be more game for it. Apparently given the state of the wagons people agreed (I don’t think the majority of the people on the Rakk wagon are mafia).

I was actually more conflicted on the Rakk wagon towards the end and was seriously considering flipping to Tak after probing Tak, and it was just really lackluster. I decided to just stick to my guns because both felt sus to me and I actually wasn’t willing to cast m/m out of the possibilities Pool

Samson used to be a tone read, but I don’t see new!maf Samson in a t/t situation to be the exact vote to put one above the other. Fwiw, in a T/S world I can kinda see him doing that upon reflection, but I think that he waits for the situation to develop more. Also don’t see coaching in the situation