KoS4 - Something more casual (?)
- Thread starter kossin
- Start date
mlinneak
Prince
I'd like to request that someone please put a sign on the HE city, so it's easier for me to keep track that that city should just be a military pump. 
Prelude for my turn set :
- start UoS in Carthage right after the market
No need for aquaduct first, we can hook up deer + clam.
A Jewish temple costs 120
, with multipliers in Carthage it will give 6 /turn.
It takes 20 turns to earn those hammers back and the UoS takes 25 turns to build without stone.
So, do we want this wonder or only the cash?
- start to research towards Liberalism
- whip some more infrastructure or grow to max for the upcoming golden age?
- start UoS in Carthage right after the market
No need for aquaduct first, we can hook up deer + clam.
A Jewish temple costs 120
, with multipliers in Carthage it will give 6 /turn.It takes 20 turns to earn those hammers back and the UoS takes 25 turns to build without stone.
So, do we want this wonder or only the cash?
- start to research towards Liberalism
- whip some more infrastructure or grow to max for the upcoming golden age?
Whip some infrastructure in cities that aren't going to run specialists imo
I'd say let's get UoS, with the number of cities we have+AP hammers it makes sense to get temples+monasteries.
Also agree about SoD to pillage Mansa (put some ~4 chariots in it to pillage faster).
I'd say let's get UoS, with the number of cities we have+AP hammers it makes sense to get temples+monasteries.
Also agree about SoD to pillage Mansa (put some ~4 chariots in it to pillage faster).
Stochastic
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
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- 411
Has someone done an analysis of where the specialists are coming from? Normally it would be the NE city, but that is our cap, so we will be loosing out on UoS production and the benefits of bureaucracy (specialists won't get the multiplier, this is made worse by loosing out on GA hammers and commerce to multiply).
For the bureau problem maybe we should switch to Vassalage as well as Cast and Pacifism for the duration of the GPP pumping so we still get some benefit?
I'm less certain about the best way to fix the UoS problem, it would be best if it was built in the cap b/c the extra GS points would be nice, but if we are cranking specialists then it won't be getting much production. I guess we'll just have to take the hit because I don't know where else we'll build the UoS anyway.
For the bureau problem maybe we should switch to Vassalage as well as Cast and Pacifism for the duration of the GPP pumping so we still get some benefit?
I'm less certain about the best way to fix the UoS problem, it would be best if it was built in the cap b/c the extra GS points would be nice, but if we are cranking specialists then it won't be getting much production. I guess we'll just have to take the hit because I don't know where else we'll build the UoS anyway.
Carthage will get enough GPP from Great Library+NE+2 scientists under Pacifism+GA to get a GS out fast.
Getting 1/2 GM can be done in Zhou and/or Chinook as both have decent food and high pop.
We can even try to delay Carthage (get its GS after a GM) so that it benefits from the GA+Bureaucracy production bonus for UoS.
Remember we're getting a 15 turns GA, under Pacifism that should be about enough to get 3 GPs [haven't done the math when saying this]. The next GA is right around the corner after Taj Mahal too!
Getting 1/2 GM can be done in Zhou and/or Chinook as both have decent food and high pop.
We can even try to delay Carthage (get its GS after a GM) so that it benefits from the GA+Bureaucracy production bonus for UoS.
Remember we're getting a 15 turns GA, under Pacifism that should be about enough to get 3 GPs [haven't done the math when saying this]. The next GA is right around the corner after Taj Mahal too!
Have I missed something?
And you keep on talking about Great Scientists.
Use of Golden age:
I apologize is everyone here understand what I will try to say here, But I am trying to make sure.
Biggest effect of golden age comes not from additional commerce/hammer from ties, but from No anarchy and +100% to GP generation.
So, Golden age best to be used for Mass producing GP people outside National epic city.
Usually it tend to be hard to push out GP from outside cities, as National epic has +100% gp generation. So, in usual citation NE has +100% and other cities have +0%
But in Golden age.. First Golden age +100%, Second, On first turn golden age we need to revolt to castle system/Pacifism (0 turn revolt).
Now every city has +200% to GP generation when National epic city has 300% - difference now is not that big.
Before golden age ends, on it's last turn we should revolt back to slavery /what ever other civic (again 0 turn revolt)
So, in preparation for golden age we need to mark cities with big excess food, which could push out GP or collect enough GP points to have chance to Push out GP on second Golden age.
It is a good idea to grow them to health limit before starting golden age.
Then start golden age, revolt to castle/pacifism, hire maximum amout of merchants (GM is probably best Greap person for as, but I would find use for Greate Spy or GE too), so I would use this specialists slots and put all other slots into Merchants.
Now how many Specialists to hire? Well, we will have 18 turns GA(12 turns on our speed +50% = 18 turns) if I am not mistaken.
Easiest is to hire stable amount of specialists (put city into slight starvation, but calculate so city do not starve before GA ends.)
But if one calculate that we can push out additional GP befor GA ends, we can use starvation mechanism.
That mean hire specialists so city empy granary befor GA ends, for amount of turns we need to run full amount of speciallists and then hire ALL population as specialists.
That would use game mechanic, so city starve 1 population/turn no matter how mach food it is lucking. This is useful if city population is big enough to justify that.
Other cities, that could not have chance to produce GP, better use hammer/commerce bonus of GA
Saying that, I think we are not ready to start golden age just yet.
Our priorities should be:
1) Form SOd to pillage Mansa.
2) Collect enough city defender in border cities, as for derivation of GA we would not have slavery (Well we can switch back after 5 turns, but we will loose some of GA effect doing that.
3) Grow food rich cities to health cap.
4) connect stone
5) settle more of remaining city cites.
6) take over barbarian city
So, unless we really need Golden age commerce to push out our research Now I would rather wait and prepare for best use of golden age.
I believe pillaging massa will have better effect oh guaranty liberalism for as then other ways.
I apologize is everyone here understand what I will try to say here, But I am trying to make sure.
Biggest effect of golden age comes not from additional commerce/hammer from ties, but from No anarchy and +100% to GP generation.
So, Golden age best to be used for Mass producing GP people outside National epic city.
Usually it tend to be hard to push out GP from outside cities, as National epic has +100% gp generation. So, in usual citation NE has +100% and other cities have +0%
But in Golden age.. First Golden age +100%, Second, On first turn golden age we need to revolt to castle system/Pacifism (0 turn revolt).
Now every city has +200% to GP generation when National epic city has 300% - difference now is not that big.
Before golden age ends, on it's last turn we should revolt back to slavery /what ever other civic (again 0 turn revolt)
So, in preparation for golden age we need to mark cities with big excess food, which could push out GP or collect enough GP points to have chance to Push out GP on second Golden age.
It is a good idea to grow them to health limit before starting golden age.
Then start golden age, revolt to castle/pacifism, hire maximum amout of merchants (GM is probably best Greap person for as, but I would find use for Greate Spy or GE too), so I would use this specialists slots and put all other slots into Merchants.
Now how many Specialists to hire? Well, we will have 18 turns GA(12 turns on our speed +50% = 18 turns) if I am not mistaken.
Easiest is to hire stable amount of specialists (put city into slight starvation, but calculate so city do not starve before GA ends.)
But if one calculate that we can push out additional GP befor GA ends, we can use starvation mechanism.
That mean hire specialists so city empy granary befor GA ends, for amount of turns we need to run full amount of speciallists and then hire ALL population as specialists.
That would use game mechanic, so city starve 1 population/turn no matter how mach food it is lucking. This is useful if city population is big enough to justify that.
Other cities, that could not have chance to produce GP, better use hammer/commerce bonus of GA
Saying that, I think we are not ready to start golden age just yet.
Our priorities should be:
1) Form SOd to pillage Mansa.
2) Collect enough city defender in border cities, as for derivation of GA we would not have slavery (Well we can switch back after 5 turns, but we will loose some of GA effect doing that.
3) Grow food rich cities to health cap.
4) connect stone
5) settle more of remaining city cites.
6) take over barbarian city
So, unless we really need Golden age commerce to push out our research Now I would rather wait and prepare for best use of golden age.
I believe pillaging massa will have better effect oh guaranty liberalism for as then other ways.
^^I completely agree. But base GA is 10 turns on Epic (yea, it sucks) so 15 turns with MoM.
I think it's pretty easy to understand, if anyone wants clarification just ask
#1 priority: make Mansa pay -> sufficient units for SoD (bring several spears for Elephants as well as other counters)
#2 grow target cities as much as possible [Zhou/Chinook]
Other things Mutineer posted are also important but imo secondary to the big picture.
I think it's pretty easy to understand, if anyone wants clarification just ask
#1 priority: make Mansa pay -> sufficient units for SoD (bring several spears for Elephants as well as other counters)
#2 grow target cities as much as possible [Zhou/Chinook]
Other things Mutineer posted are also important but imo secondary to the big picture.
Stochastic
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 411
Have I missed something?
I was just wondering about the conflicting requirements of maximising pumping GPPs and building wonders in a Buro+NE capital. But as Mutineer pointed out, when in a GA+cast the difference between the NE and an ordinary city is probably less important than having a city with lots of population for GPP production, something I had not considered.
edit: just saw the new save, here's a quick thought before I head off:
Looks like Joao could easily beat us to lib... Nice choice putting some eps on him, we'll be able to see his research next turn. Do we want to try to beat him by popping the GA early?
Maybe Nappy should be asked to tech compass for us?
Also, I noticed that Pascal has nationalism+marble, the Taj is looking less likely too.
You can blame me if we aren't the first to Liberalism, because I've wasted some turns teching Engineering.
Zara annoyed me with some war elephants near Zhou and I wanted to trade Paper for
Engineering with Pacal, but I had to wait until he was friendly with Napoleon.
When it was possible he got it from someone else.
The Taj Mahal isn't lost. I've polluted Carthage with GE points while building UoS.
Zara annoyed me with some war elephants near Zhou and I wanted to trade Paper for
Engineering with Pacal, but I had to wait until he was friendly with Napoleon.
When it was possible he got it from someone else.
The Taj Mahal isn't lost. I've polluted Carthage with GE points while building UoS.
Stochastic
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 411
So how desperatly do we want the taj assuming lib is not an option?
Mansa is willing to pay 310 gold for peace. That would give us 832 gold. At -236pgt that is 3.5 turns of research, which will get us half of the way to lib. So if we pop a GA we could *probably* (no calculations here) get us lib in ~4(if lucky) or 5 turns. If Kossin is right about Joao having 4 turns of a lead on us, then I think we might be scuppered too, looking at the info screen we know he is #1 in GNP so he'll probably be getting Lib next turn or the turn after (assuming he's being going for 4 turns already).
Another option would be to use the gold from Mansa to help get Pascal to trade Nationalism to us for Edu+gold. It looks like we are close to having enough, he is willing to trade engineering(half teched)+music+theo for edu+70 gold.
Then we could get on the Taj right now, save our GP golden age for a bit later and broker Nationalism around (though then only interesting techs around are guilds and engineering).
That method would work, but it would mean giving Zara and Mansa 10 turns to rebuild.
Mansa is willing to pay 310 gold for peace. That would give us 832 gold. At -236pgt that is 3.5 turns of research, which will get us half of the way to lib. So if we pop a GA we could *probably* (no calculations here) get us lib in ~4(if lucky) or 5 turns. If Kossin is right about Joao having 4 turns of a lead on us, then I think we might be scuppered too, looking at the info screen we know he is #1 in GNP so he'll probably be getting Lib next turn or the turn after (assuming he's being going for 4 turns already).
Another option would be to use the gold from Mansa to help get Pascal to trade Nationalism to us for Edu+gold. It looks like we are close to having enough, he is willing to trade engineering(half teched)+music+theo for edu+70 gold.
Then we could get on the Taj right now, save our GP golden age for a bit later and broker Nationalism around (though then only interesting techs around are guilds and engineering).
That method would work, but it would mean giving Zara and Mansa 10 turns to rebuild.
I agree with Mutineer.
Pacal is willing to trade Nationalism, means he isn't building it.
On the other hand Hammurabi and Mansa Musa have got both a Great Engineer during my turn set.
Hammurabi has finished Sistine Chapel before he got the GE.
Mansa Musa must have used his GE to rush Notre Dame.
Pacal is willing to trade Nationalism, means he isn't building it.
On the other hand Hammurabi and Mansa Musa have got both a Great Engineer during my turn set.
Hammurabi has finished Sistine Chapel before he got the GE.
Mansa Musa must have used his GE to rush Notre Dame.
Losing Liberalism isn't so bad, it's just too bad that we might not be able to cash in on the free tech, don't worry about it though
Joao is 2nd in GNP, next to Pacal... he's got fewer cities so I can hardly see how he'd be ahead.
With Hammy and Pacal @ Friendly, what we really need now is:
-Zara breaks free (reduce MM power)
-vassal Zara
-mass power so Pacal and Hammy want to be our vassals. This probably will mean taking a ceasefire with MM for Hammy as he's Pleased with him (can't force war).
Once all the above happens, we'll be within spitting distance of victory.
Anyway, the big picture of my plan:
Techs
Trigger GA right away and try for Liberalism this turn. Next turn we should see Joao's research which will tell if we have a chance to grab it before him. Build wealth/science as needed to get there first.
Otherwise trade for Nationalism with Pacal to attempt Taj (or at least failure gold).
Other techs I'd like: Printing Press (probably with GS coming from Carthage), Engineering, Guilds?, Banking?, Economics?, Gunpowder?
Gift techs to Napoleon for his spare gold once he has some. He's never breaking away and no point keeping him backwards.
Cities
-Zhou/Chinook mass Merchants
-Rest of the cities either wealth/science or finish current build and start some military (time to start raising power)
-Zhou would make a good GT city, drafting Rifles will be a good and fast way to amass power.
-move some units out of Ainu to try convincing Mansa to suicide his units there
-probably finish building cities to claim more land for ourselves.
Others
-pillage Mansa to stone age if enough units are ready (>10)
Joao is 2nd in GNP, next to Pacal... he's got fewer cities so I can hardly see how he'd be ahead.
With Hammy and Pacal @ Friendly, what we really need now is:
-Zara breaks free (reduce MM power)
-vassal Zara
-mass power so Pacal and Hammy want to be our vassals. This probably will mean taking a ceasefire with MM for Hammy as he's Pleased with him (can't force war).
Once all the above happens, we'll be within spitting distance of victory.
Anyway, the big picture of my plan:
Techs
Trigger GA right away and try for Liberalism this turn. Next turn we should see Joao's research which will tell if we have a chance to grab it before him. Build wealth/science as needed to get there first.
Otherwise trade for Nationalism with Pacal to attempt Taj (or at least failure gold).
Other techs I'd like: Printing Press (probably with GS coming from Carthage), Engineering, Guilds?, Banking?, Economics?, Gunpowder?
Gift techs to Napoleon for his spare gold once he has some. He's never breaking away and no point keeping him backwards.
Cities
-Zhou/Chinook mass Merchants
-Rest of the cities either wealth/science or finish current build and start some military (time to start raising power)
-Zhou would make a good GT city, drafting Rifles will be a good and fast way to amass power.
-move some units out of Ainu to try convincing Mansa to suicide his units there
-probably finish building cities to claim more land for ourselves.
Others
-pillage Mansa to stone age if enough units are ready (>10)
mlinneak
Prince
Sounds like a good plan, kossin 
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