KoS4 - Something more casual (?)

[timmy827]

OK, things are looking good. Here's my preturn plan, incorporating suggestions so far. Will play Saturday afternoon (PST) or Sunday morning depending on discussion.

We have no forges, and only one in the beginning stages of construction. I think we can hold off on more units for the moment and getting those up seems like a good move (in addition to Jewish buildings for the AP hammers). In the religious-building vein, Sankore sounds like a good plan though I doubt I will get the stone hooked in anytime soon.

Bureacracy? We have enough units that Vassalage is a reasonable option, probably B is still better (also good for diplo bonus with Hammy.)

Kossin's research plan sounds good.

Will bribe Nappy to close borders and send him a missionary as well. What should he research after HBR? Drama and Compass seem like the best options that he could maybe finish in a reasonable time.

What to do with our current GG? Also, didn't we have two GG units, I only see one sword (which I will return to our lands briefly to upgrade).

Settlers - so I think we want three - city on the dye, city in the 5-resource tundra spot north of France, and one for the stone city (I guess the "city?" is the best choice), so I will whip them out of Carthage (we're over the health cap and working plains farms), Zhou, and Chinook.

 

[mlinneak]

Plan sounds good so far. I lost at least one GG unit during my set I might've lost another one as well, or at least a highly promoted unit. Definitely try getting those settlers out, I missed doing that during my set.

 

[kossin]

Sounds good.

I suggested making a WIII Maceman with the GG to help pick off archers in jungles. Settling can be fine as well I think. We have a 12 exp sword sitting by Leptis that already has WII. Unfortunately it has "wasted" a promotion on CR but it would make a good candidate for a free upgrade.

Bureaucracy will give us a lot of bpt and gpt since Carthage is pretty heavy on commerce. Vassalage will definitely be a good option down the line however.

Not sure how to hook up the stone early... taking a look. A missionary would definitely make it faster.
The other option is to put it 1N with the stone in the first ring. We lose 1 grassland to the south but gain one up north. Either one or the other will be lost no matter where we settle so it's not a tough choice in my mind.

 

[timmy827]

RE: WIII - kossin, sorry forgot to reply to your initial post. We will already have one in a couple turns - Lord Nelson the WIII sword will return to our lands for the free upgrade. Another one may be useful though.

Stone city - OK, I guess putting it 1N of the sign works for me. Since we will have Paper soon I agree on value of hooking up stone earlier vs. getting the new city growing faster.

I see we still haven't built the Heroic Epic. Not surprising, none of our cities has the food + several hills for early game production that generally makes a good site. Leptis has 3 hills, farmable grassland, and hasn't sunk any hammers into libraries or markets; I think it's as good a site as we're going to get (none of the SW cities look good). So I will start it there this TS unless there is an objection

Other tidbits - Aqueduct in Carthage is going to be delayed indefinitely. We can trade/demand for Napoleon's sheep for now, and then the new cities will give us deer and clams. Especially with Bureaucracy, monastery, market etc. will pay off a lot more.

Mlinneak - do you remember how the culture on the corn tile went after Hammy used his Great Artist?

At the beginning of your set, it was 77/22
Now 62/37

Did it jump to about the latter level with the bomb then stay still, or has it been generally trending that direction?

 

[timmy827]

Slightly luckier than kossin, I made it two turns before Zara vassaled again to Mansa:

Suggestions welcome. His stack isn't big, but I am really not sure if we can stop it from taking one of those cities.

Probably will wind up playing tomorrow night.

 

[kossin]

Meh... whip walls in Ainu, that will give us enough time to shuffle/whip enough troops over there.

Try to pillage his horses, he has Guilds and I would rather not face Knights just yet.

 

[Stochastic]

OK, I'm back!

Looking at the save, things look like they are doing quite well for the most part, though I'm a bit surprised by our low unit count.

Re the Aniu situation, here is my analysis. We've got min 3 turns to play with (including this one) probably 4 if we get walls in. I'd say whip an LB in Aniu first (only 1pop as hammers are already invested), then it can get more fortify. Also move the LB from Kerkouan down and 2 pop whip one there to replace it. Pay some cash to upgrade the sword to a mace. Then we'll want one more LB to be safe, probably whip another in Aniu after the walls. That stack isn't exactly threatening, though with our variant loosing a city would really suck.

Empire wide, I think we should try to get some more unit production, one or two more LBs some spears for any knights, and maybe a chariot or two to pillage Mansa's Horse. I realise that this is going against the past consensus of the rest of the group, so I'm fine with being overruled, but looking at our unit supply I strongly feel that we are under defended. Admittedly Mansa isn't much of a threat if we can take out the horses, but as we are at war someone else might try to jump us...

Settling stone, I'd vote for the current location of the sign. We won't be using the stone for a bit longer so if we have a missionary ready from the get go I don't think the culture delay will be important. Also the current sign gets two more coastal tiles than one north, and those are good for us.

Settling the dye and the tundra spot are both no brainers, just make sure that Nappy doesn't steal our fish!

 

[Mutineer]

Upgrade sword to mace-man and promote it to unti melee.
Whip walls in aini(You can do it in 2 turns with out penalty, it will take 2 turns for stack to rich city and move LB from other city to middle. Whip LB in other city and next LB(emergency whip) in Aini and we should be safe. Trow some overflow into spears just in case, if you can produce it in one turn. Do more whipping if necessary.
We have gold, use it. Watch Zara chariot near our workers.(Ohh it is Jao chariot, the same green color)
sword which stack with workers, move to city and upgrade. I do not believe we are in mach dange of loosing eather city.

Switch research to 0, so you have money for emergency upgrades.

 

[timmy827]

Played 10 turns, know we would allow longer but that was about all I had time for.

Fears of Knights were highly exaggerated, as Mansa had Guilds but not HBR! I can't believe he didn't swing a trade for it or get as gift from Zara.

Good ol' predictable AI waited to bombard down all of Ainu's walls before attacking, allowing me to marshal forces both by the road and the whip. Our GG split experience:

The sword was highly experienced already and this gave another free mace upgrade; the mace was new but got to 13xp for 4 promotions. Even Lord Nelson was able to 2-move all the way through Ethiopia just in time to join in the fun. Attacked out and killed 2 maces, 2 longbows, and 3 cats at the cost of 1 cat, 1 longbow, 1 mace; given that most battles were ~60-80% after the initial suicide that seemed a pretty fair outcome. Mansa still didn't have HBR at end of set, but decided for safety to sacrifice a chariot to pillage the horse. So that went well (only paid 155 cash for 1 upgrade), of course the downside is that Ainu and Kerkouane had the stuffing whipped out of them and still lack forges, courthouse, lighthouse (Kerkouane). At least we have a gazillion luxuries so we don't have to worry about the (note that none of our Incense is yet connected as it didn't seem a priority with every city having 7+ spare happiness).

Other things:

Zara is getting ivory from Mansa, and I saw one War Elephant. He's gathering in Addis Abbaba, may try and attack soon; did some more road building to help defense.

Mansa has couple units still at Ainu from a 2ndary stack camping on the tundra hill mine (but not pillaging oddly). Possibly our stack there can split with some going to pillage him a bit. He still won't talk.

Paper done, Engineering as placeholder as suggested. Joao got it a few turns before us, but he doesn't have stone (I took a spare chariot and mapped his lands); so we can probably get UoS if we want it (stone hooked up in a few turns). I burned a lot of the outlying forests at Carthage to get some infra up, but there are still some left for the (big) University.

Napoleon appears to be totally broke, think he is actually going 1 beaker/turn on HBR and still hasn't finished. he has some plantations in progress which should boost his commerce, but still seems to be working through some archer upgrades.

2nd GS came in, they are both in Carthage. Did not double-bulb Edu as that would waste almost 1000 beakers of bulb; my inclination would be to finish Edu normally after 1 bulb then use the other on Printing Press. I think this is biggest decision to make now, please weigh in. Kossin suggested a big Lib sling, but I think Nationalism may be best - with all our extra happy, being able to draft would be huge (even maces or muskets), and since Joao is even with us (and probably teching faster) I'm not sure waiting for something later is workable.

Settler in place for northern tundra spot, was waiting to found until missionary arrived (can be done next turn). Unfortunately there are a pair of barb galleys that could make improving the seafood a pain. Missionary en route to the stone city also, along with the beginnings of a stack to take the barb city (sword in Leptis could join, probably city can finish HE and a defender before any more trouble comes up). Next turn, move the chariot in and out to see if it has archers or longbows.

Also, this came up:

Pacal also founded Islam.

 

[Stochastic]

Sounds like everything was handled smoothly, well done! Also, nice catch about HBR, I find I usually forget all about it when planning a mounted war, it is good to see the computer doing the same

For bulbs: I think a single bulb of Education will be sufficient, maybe wait a few turns to get some more gold in the coffers, I think I read somewhere than the number of beakers we get is dependent upon the total pop so if we wait a bit we'll get a few more beakers out of it and I don't think we will be able to 100% edu even after the bulb just yet.
I'm not sure about the other GS, I don't see rifles being as much of a priority as cannons so it may be a while before we get to PP, perhaps a second academy in one of our cottaged cities?

For liberalism I think it is still a bit too early to decide. Nationalism certainly has more attractions than usual because we have the MoM and marble so loosing the Taj would be a shame and as you said, the high happy makes drafting easier. But I'd prefer to try to get steel if possible. My suggestion is tech lib up to 1 turn away then see how others are teching.

 

[kossin]

Looks good, I'll take a look in about 2 hours. Nationalism from Lib is fine... I had Rifling in mind but it's no biggie.

Also, Rifling>Steel here, as we can't attack cities.

 

[mlinneak]

Mlinneak - do you remember how the culture on the corn tile went after Hammy used his Great Artist?

At the beginning of your set, it was 77/22
Now 62/37

Did it jump to about the latter level with the bomb then stay still, or has it been generally trending that direction?

I don't remember I was not watching that at all unfortunately.

I agree with Stochastic that we need more units. And I agree with getting Nationalism with Lib, the Taj Mahal would be great to get.

 

[kossin]

Ok took a closer look:

Good job, well played!

-Hammy should be Friendly when we max out Bureaucracy civic but we don't have enough power to friendly vassal him. We'd need a ton of units to have enough power and I don't see it happening before Rifling/Stee; =\
-similarly for Pacal
-we can lend Napoleon a few workers to help him get back in shape (farms/cottages in his land)
-Nappy is probably suffering pretty hard from the whip, we should consider gifting him surplus luxury resources [incense, gold for starters, we have enough surplus happiness atm]
-we should definitely mount a stack to go pillage Mansa back into the Stone Age. 12~15 units should be more than enough
-agree with 1x bulb Education, the second GS can be used to trigger a GA where we will spit out another GS and a GM under Caste/Pacifism for trade mission [starve a city if need be]. The other GS can be used to bulb PP as it will benefit us a lot
-renegotiate resource deals with Pacal (keep the fur)


Cities: [basically, we want to add hammers and cut maintenance where it's ~10+]
Carthage: queue Aqueduct then Jewish Temple > UoS
Utica: Jewish Temple/Monastery before Market... probably CH before Market too
Kerkouane: lighthouse before, them Temple/Monastery
Zhou: 2-pop whip for max hammers into Temple then CH
Letpis: since this is going to be military pump, farm over cottages to grow. Add hammer buildings and CH then *military
Chinook: Monastery first
Ainu: Monastery/Temple
Thapsus: LH then CH then Mona/Temple

I would suggest Chinook to farm the GM since it has 2 good food resources. Target city is likely Lakhama or Coimbra I think (check with shift+hover).

Pacal should be Friendly with Nappy shortly so that's unlimited trades, which is good.

Lib>Nat is fine, but we'll want to build GT and peace-vassal Hammy before drafting. Drafting maces isn't worth it imo. Muskets are ok but I'd prefer rifles to add a lot of power quickly.

Next GG should make a SuperMedic.

 

[timmy827]

Yes more units are always good, but I'm not sure what specific use we'd have for them yet. Napoleon is still far too weak to capture a Zara city full of longbows even if we bombed away the culture for him; I think we have to wait for the peace-vassal to break again.

Other things I forgot - Judaism spread to napoleon, but I don't think he converted; perhaps flip him another tech for that.

I did not get around to building the 3rd planned settler (was started in Ainu and of course scrapped when Mansa DOWd), so left the dye/gold/clams unsettled. There was also a barb galley in that area...

 

[mlinneak]

Checked the save before leaving for work - he converted

 

[kossin]

We could always gift units to Napoleon. However:
-that would reduce our own power
-that would mean Zara would likely not break away from Mansa

I prefer shifting them south and sending Mansa into the Stone Age. They'll pay for their upkeep via pillaging.


1. kossin
2. Stochastic
3. Mutineer
4. mlinneak
5. timmy827
6. Tatran - UP!
7. babybluepants - On deck

 

[Stochastic]

For lib I think it is still a bit early to decide what to take. After the next set we should have edu, maybe take another look at the situation then.

If we do got for a golden age, we should probably wait a few more turns to accumulate gold. Since we have more science multipliers than gold ones we will want to spend as much of the GA at 100% as possible.

I don't think there is much point in gifting units to Nappy, he'll only do stupid AI things with them anyways.

 

[timmy827]

I don't remember I was not watching that at all unfortunately.

No worries. The corn tile stayed at 62/37 my whole set so we don't seem to be in any danger of losing it.

Letpis: since this is going to be military pump, farm over cottages to grow. Add hammer buildings and CH then *military

Time for my Heroic Epic Soapbox (I got into this same argument with the Realms Beyond team in the Apolyton Demogame). We could farm over the cottages (and we may as well since we have soooo many stolen workers), but it already has the food to work all the hills so we won't get a whole lot out of growing (unless we envision staying in Caste and getting Guilds sometime soonish, for useful workshops; or possibly setting up a whipping cycle while staying big enough for the hills). My bigger complaint is about the buildings; once the HE is up in a city I find it hard to justify building anything besides military.

Due to OR, Forge costs us 144 base hammers (using the Epic speed cost), which is 288 hammers of military. We'd need 1152 base hammers after that to come out ahead on military produced, which is an awfully long payback time when the city's current base production is 13. (I'm discounting the forge happiness as we have a ton of room there)

If you count the Jewish buildings as hammer buildings, the monastery is 72 base hammer cost so 144 of military, and pays back 4 hammers of military per turn - much better than the forge, but still kind of long.

Since the courthouse saves GPT it's an apples-and-oranges, but you get the idea. My general preference with HE cities is *military all the time unless I am absolutely sure I don't need more units.

---

GA plan makes sense (I completely forgot we had the Mausoleum )

Also kossin, is the desire for a trade mission for a deficit research binge or upgrade binge? If you want a city besides Carthage to spit one out, Zhou looks like the best choice. However, Mansa owns the ToA so that could be a snag.

 

[kossin]

^^Fair enough for HE city. The idea with farming is for whipping out the hammer buildings, but a well defended position is a good one.

GM trade mission is for deficit research and emergency upgrades. The power we'd gain from upgrading obsolete units really isn't that impressive.

Also, I would suggest we start moving towards Rifling after Liberalism. We can likely spit out a few more GMs during the Taj GA to keep research high. It will also provide Banks and open up Chemistry to power up workshops.

Or we can pursue Economics after Lib provided MM hasn't gotten it yet(he's beelining it)

 

[babybluepants]

Hey guys,
Sorry for being away so long... I'll have to be away for another two weeks now, for personal reasons. So, you should just skip me.
Looks like the game is going really well.
Hammy will peace-vassal eventually. I'm not worried about that. We are way bigger than him, and we'll eventually have much more power with friendly status.
I'd be inclined to build some units and go after Mansa, as well. No point leaving him, since he'll just keep bugging us all game otherwise.