GPP:
Get one in Chinook in 3 turns (will stave 3 pop). Then crank merchants in Carthage to get out 2 more as I outlined earlier. Get the first one out asap, then time the other to come out with the end of the GA to minimise starvation, will probably end up loosing 5-6 pop, but I haven't actually calculated that.
Whoa, is this really worth it? Even after the GA and Pacifism, Carthage can run 4 merchants (grocer will be done soon) and still has the NE for a good GP rate, I am not sure starving it down to get it a few turns earlier is good choice.
Also, note that our first GP from Carthage has a pretty high chance of not-merchant (no merchants have run yet and the bar is more than half full).
The plan sure looks like mass famine to me, even if he lets up a bit at the end to get the 2nd.
News flash - the GP costs are 1050, 1200, 1350, not 1050, 1200, 1500.
Sorry have to run to work and can't play around with the numbers to see what's the fastest we could get the 2nd out of Carthage w/o starving.
I've tried it a bit and I think we can get 2 GP's out of Carthage without losing any pop:
t0
Starve Chinook for 3 turns GM (keep one on the Ivory for production)
Meanwhile we want Carthage as close to 1050 so start running 5 merchants(+120 ). The rest of the citizens should focus on (no 1 tile)
t3
Chinook produces GM, has lost 3 pop (kept working the Ivory)
Carthage 1034/1200 , 2 turns for the next GP, 66 food in bank
t5
Carthage pops GP (whatever it is), 24/1350,
70 food in bank
Here we can either give Carthage 5 food to grow and gain food via granary or simply run a few more merchants
We have 11 turns of GA remaining, effectively 10 however as we want a civic switch on the last turn.
So we need to average 135 for 10 turns: which is easily done if we let it grow or even if we don't.
The plan sure looks like mass famine to me, even if he lets up a bit at the end to get the 2nd.
News flash - the GP costs are 1050, 1200, 1350, not 1050, 1200, 1500.
Sorry have to run to work and can't play around with the numbers to see what's the fastest we could get the 2nd out of Carthage w/o starving.
Sorry I didn't really make that table a bit clearer it was supposed to be more of an experiment into how far I could push the GPP not an exact plan. That is why I posted a second time saying I would minimise starvation. Anyway that was the first time I've actually posted some number crunching, next time I'll remember I'm not telepathically telling everyone what I'm thinking
I've tried it a bit and I think we can get 2 GP's out of Carthage without losing any pop:
t0
Starve Chinook for 3 turns GM (keep one on the Ivory for production)
Meanwhile we want Carthage as close to 1050 so start running 5 merchants(+120 ). The rest of the citizens should focus on (no 1 tile)
t3
Chinook produces GM, has lost 3 pop (kept working the Ivory)
Carthage 1034/1200 , 2 turns for the next GP, 66 food in bank
t5
Carthage pops GP (whatever it is), 24/1350,
70 food in bank
Here we can either give Carthage 5 food to grow and gain food via granary or simply run a few more merchants
We have 11 turns of GA remaining, effectively 10 however as we want a civic switch on the last turn.
So we need to average 135 for 10 turns: which is easily done if we let it grow or even if we don't.
Thanks for confirming what my gut was telling me (that is actually better than I thought).
Now I know I said I'd play in 24hrs, and it is around that time and I think everything has been resolved to satisfaction, but I've been awake for the past 48 working on a project when I wasn't procrastinating by planning my set and really just want to sleep and don't want to play a game that requires very careful thought as I'll probably mess up. So I'll catch a quickish nap and then play in 6ish. I hope that is ok with everyone? If not I understand if someone wants to ninja a swap before my next post and play the plan.
Ok, that took me a bit longer than expected... though I did have dinner in between. There were a few moves that I blame on being a bit tired still, but I don't think any are that serious.
Here
Inherited turn 265:
Pumped Chinook full of merchants.
Hired 4 in Carthage. Put a worker on the hill over growth to get the grocer in faster.
Turn 266
Swapped to Drafting Drafted in the three cities closest to Mansa as I saw that he had a WE built.
Looks like Hammy used up a bunch of his gold elsewhere, but I make a trade for 590 for Guilds.
Spoiler:
I considered getting him to go into Pacifism as well, but it didn't look like he had that many units anyways, so I thought it might actually end up helping him.
Turn 267
Nappy has Compass, so I get it off of him on the chance that we get around to building cothons.
Spoiler:
Looking at the trade screen, everyone is neck and neck. I ask Nappy to tech Optics, well need it if we ever want to get Physics.
Turn 268
Finish banking start on RP.
Turn 269
Cash in our first GM for 2250. On the way we saw that Pascal seems to be focusing on culture...
Turn 270
Socrates born in Carthage, is put in a cryogenic chamber.
Turn 271
Swap back to Buro.
Took a bit of collateral damage from Zara, drafted muskets aren't quite strong enough to stand up to CII elephants without defensive bonuses or promos, as I loose one.
Joao got PP, he's teching like a human!
We've also taken several infiltration hits to our tiles, a watermill and a town.
Turn 273
Finish settler for Dye
Turn 274
RP done, on to rifles in 7 turns. So we might actually want to swap into Nationalism before the GA is done.
Turn 275
Start work on GT in Zhou.
Found Tacape
The AP vote comes up, I abstain despite thinking I should vote for us, that seems to be what people have been doing.
Turn 276
We get the AP residency anyways.
Spoiler:
Cash in the 2nd GM for another 2250 so that we have enough money to get to rifling.
In an attempt to get a medic maceman for our pillage stack I make a move and fork the stack by attacking a pair of manas units with a musket first (it had the best odds). So I abandon the draftee in favour of saving the medic.
Turn 279
I max out merchant specs in Carthage without starvation to help increase the odds of getting a GM.
Turn 280
We get a GM in Carthage!
I have not touched the civics despite Mutineer's reminder as I thought we might want to get straight into Nationalism what with rifling 1 turn away.
Comments/thoughts
Zhou could have the GT 4pop whipped, but I'd personally prefer to get 4 more rifles...
I think the next tech should be Military Trad for Cavalry.
I just realised that I made a major decision early on, I should have asked Nappy to tech Engineering over Optics, I blame lack of sleep. I'd say get him to swap now, the lack of 3 move roads is a real pain.
We've got another stack almost ready to roll into Mansa land. It has enough
defenders but could do with another 2 move unit. I'd still suggest sending it into the nearby land to get rid of all those pesky roads while some more knights show up.
Some review pics of the current turn, I don't think there was much that was photogenic during the game.
Spoiler:
Zara is nice and tiile-less
Still working on Mansa, though the towns around Numidian gave lots of nice cash.
Techs, Joao is still making me nervous, though last time I checked he was willing to give a whole bunch for GP so he probably isn't going for it yet.
Don't worry about the questionable moves, we all make them
Actually, since we already have a bunch of beakers invested in Engineering, we should get it ourselves and leave Nappy on Optics imo. Send him on Astronomy next perhaps?
Not sure we need Cavalry really... need to think on this one. I would rather get Communism now for Kremlin+State Property.
Save the GS, the GM can make another trade mission (isn't it a great tool?). Hopefully next GP will help trigger our 3rd GA.
We'll need to get Pacal back into Judaism (away from FR) to get him to vassal peacefully...
It's not too pressing right now as we don't have twice his power anyway. Same with Hammy... we need more power to get them to vassal.
Regarding Zara+Mansa
If, once we have twice his power, MM won't capitulate, we should consider helping Napoleon damage Zara further.
I am ON I see, well I agree, we revolt to nationhood/slavery/org religion, Mercantilism?.
I think it is better for as, as it denies trade routes to AI and help more to our lots of small cities.
Even with out representation I think it is a good move. Mansa researching representation,
(I did not expect we get riffling that fast. Hey No one will argue that musket and elephant have similar strength, still Muskets do the job before something better come along. Muskets do not have weakness at that stage of the game.
I think I will draft and found a few more cities.
On iron, near Whales, near new Nappy ex zara city.
May be even settle city on ice Iron on north.
We simply want as mach land as possible.
Research wise, well may be it is silly on this stage of the game, but I noticed no one research divine right. That tech make a few nice wanders available with will reduce maintenance of our spawning empire and increase effect of our religious buildings.
WE really do not need any other mil tech for the moment, Communism is far away, but devine right are very cheap.
I'm not sure about Merc, if I remember correctly we still have all foreign trade routes so switching them off will probably make us loose ~3-4 commerce in each city. That means that it will be close to neutral, maybe a bit negative for us. And the AI will just trade with each other so I don't think they will lose out on much. Also I think it will reduce the power of our last GM, but I'm not sure by how much.
Does anyone know if we still get to trade with vassals if we are in Merc? I think we do, but I've never had vassals and Merc at the same time, so I'm not sure. If we do, that might tip the balance if we help Nappy take all of Zara's cities or get Mansa to capitulate.
Re cities: I think before the northern iron site we should get another city by the double fish city. It won't need both fish forever and that would give another city to feel the draft.
Here is the proposed site:
Spoiler:
Techs:
Divine right has been researched by Pascal, his cities have Islam in them and it looks like he is going culture. He doesn't have stone however and is in free religion so maybe the Spiral isn't out of reach? It would be a gamble as looking back through the event log Islam was founded in 850 AD...
I think cavalry would be nice because then we would have a 2 move unit without a counter that could make quick strikes to kill units near our stack. This would help us gain war victories faster. Right now our knights are of limited use because Mansa has so many WEs.
SP is less important in this game IMO because we are all on one continent and relatively close together. Throwing down the FP on the peninsula would do quite a bit. I agree that Communism will be a very good tech because of the Kremlin, and SP will be our best econ tech until we go for corps (if we want to) but I'm sure it deserves a beeline past a powerful military unit that we will absolutely need anyways when Joao gets to Grenadiers/cannon.
All that said, a couple of pages back I think someone suggested turning research off for a while after getting rifles while we build unis+Oxford. Unless we want to gamble on divine right I think that is a good choice as either cavs or Communism could wait the ~16-18 turns it will probably take. Also if we do this we should save the GM until we want research back on, Mansa has the ToA so that city might become the better spot when he capitulates.
If we want to reduce maintenance, there's always Forbidden Palace.
Communism is 3 techs away (via Chemistry or Astronomy)... that's not really far given our tech rate. All we need is some spare gold.
SM will obsolete TGL and Monasteries but that's really not so bad. Biology might give us a good NP spot, have to check where it would work.
Pacal is going culture... OB with him doesn't change much.
Hammurabi is backwards... OB with him doesn't change much.
>>>We can just close borders with Joao if we want to slow him down.
No need for Mercantilism imo. Other civics are fine otherwise, another option is Theocracy instead of OR for 2xp draftees instead. Theology should be 1 turn anyway after Rifling.
Agree on Unis+Oxford now while accumulating some cash. We have to revolt to Bureaucracy later to get Hammy back into Friendly for vassaling so it will be even better. Just finish Rifling+(Theology) for the moment perhaps?
I need to check the save again for a few more things but I don't think it's too important at this point to focus too hard on details... game is basically in the bag. Once we start drafting, we'll hit double power of Hammy and Pacal pretty fast.
~~~
Interestingly, Mansa is actually second in power on this map.
Us: 609k
MM: 473k
Joao: 420k
Zara: 156k
That probably leaves Hammy+Pacal in the ~450 range as well by my guess.
We already have more than double the land of anyone.
~~~
A few micro issues:
-Cothons would be worth it in a few cities after gold multipliers I think
Carthage: plains hill -> watermill for faster growth
Zhou: plains tiles to coast... doesn't slow down GT
Leptis: work the farm instead of the sabotaged watermill
Burgundian: get a lighthouse ASAP... these new cities don't benefit so much from commerce multipliers... courthouses, food and production, happiness to get them online ASAP
Bribing Pacal back into Judaism doesn't have to be done right now but it needs to happen somewhere in the future.
I don't think Theology is worth it.
1) Well have to wait until after the GA to get it so will go through anarchy.
2) Our rifles have considerable tech superiority right now so the extra promo won't be all that helpful IMO.
3) OR isn't actually a bad choice, it sounds like there will be a lot of building coming up in the the next few sets and the new cities will need Judaism spread to them (though we do have monasteries is most of our cities so that is less important).
It might be interesting to combine with the swap back to buro if we've finished most of the infrastructure building by then.
Given that AI's won't cap if their power is above the average of the other civs (right? I'm never 100% on all the ins and outs of the mechanics; paging TMIT...) perhaps it would be best for Nappy to kill off Zara completely?
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so start running 5 merchants(+120 
(no 1 
moves that I blame on being a bit tired still, but I don't think any are that serious.
move and fork the stack by attacking a pair of manas units with a musket first (it had the best odds). So I abandon the draftee in favour of saving the medic.
