[NFP] Kublai Khan Discussion Thread

[Duke William of Normandy]

Trying to decide how I feel about this. On the one hand, the trade route ability has interesting synergy with both civs in different ways. On the other, it’s VERY map size dependent (but still, 11 free eurekas and inspirations is nothing to sniff at). Of course, I appreciate the extra economic policy always. Not OP, not UP. Interesting enough. Idk until I play.

They're moving away from Babylon and Byzantium OPness. Thank goodness.

 

[anonxanemone]

They're moving away from Babylon and Byzantium OPness. Thank goodness.

I sometimes like to think the OP-ness of civs to be another difficulty setting in addition to the Settler to Diety scale.

 

[bengalryan9]

You know what I think would've been better? Every time your trader number X (where X equals your maximum number of trade routes) completes it's first trade route, you get a free eureka/inspiration. Now you're incentivized to get your number of trade routes as high as possible through the use of markets, lighthouses, world congress, and great merchants... that would've been a fun and unique playstyle, and it could theoretically give you bonuses throughout the whole game.

I would've liked this a ton. Oh well.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

I'm probably more likely to play Kublai Mongolia though

Yeah, as more of a builder type player, I prefer a civ with a mix of economic and militaristic bonuses over one that's purely militaristic, even if it's suboptimal. When I play as a purely militaristic civ, I often feel like I'm wasting my unique abilities because of my hesitancy to go to war.

One thing I like about Dramatic Ages mode is that the frequency of rebelling cities gives me a way to use military bonuses without needing to be truly aggressive.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I do wish there was something else though, like maybe Kublai's traders move twice as fast, so they finish trade routes in half the time.

IIRC the speed of traders is something predetermined in the code.

I would like to see more golds on the trade routes, easier ways to get trading capacity, etc. Currently, Kublai is the only trade-focused "civ" that doesn't have anything on trade routes bonuses (Cree, Mali), extra trading capacity (Cree, Mali, Phoenicians), or cheaper trade infrastructure (England, Mali, Phoenicians).

You know what I think would've been better? Every time your trader number X (where X equals your maximum number of trade routes) completes it's first trade route, you get a free eureka/inspiration. Now you're incentivized to get your number of trade routes as high as possible through the use of markets, lighthouses, world congress, and great merchants... that would've been a fun and unique playstyle, and it could theoretically give you bonuses throughout the whole game.

Wholly agree, this is far more interesting and fun.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

+1 yellow slot is a pretty good bonus, and random eureka and inspiration for establishing a trading post with a civ for the first time is kind of manageable.

I do wish there was something else though, like maybe Kublai's traders move twice as fast, so they finish trade routes in half the time.

That would feel kind of pointless though for Mongolia.
China's trade game will definitely be risker but the reward is greater which I think is the point on why they designed him like they did.

 

[leandrombraz]

Err how? They are equal loss. Genghis gives bonus attack to his calvary AND chance to capture enemy calvary... that is not small.

Mongolia without Genghis still a pretty strong cavalry Civ, with good combat strength and mobility. China without Qin loses half of what makes it a good Civ.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

While we're on the subject, Trading Post is still an odd kinda pointless and opaque mechanic in the game (other than this case). I wonder if they can expound on it a bit, or maybe just cut it out in the next civ.

 

[UWHabs]

Mongolian Kublai is an adequate generalist, +1 Eco card and instant trade posts means he can get more gold than usual in a peaceful game, while still militarily competitive because of diplo visibility combat bonus. Do agree that Chinese Kublai on the other hand is underwhelming.

Yeah, Genghis in pure combat terms is better, but the extra econ slot in the long run will help you get ahead and get more and better units. I think Mongolian Kublai will actually be a very strong force overall - I mean, compared to a random other civ, he's still going to generally speaking be +6 combat strength on them due to the trading post/visibility, and +1 econ slot is solid. Genghis suffers from not having any econ bonus, so can basically only do war.

Chinese Kublai I think will suffer from a lack of focus. Qin obviously had his wonder-spamming, but China-Kublai doesn't really have a lot special. Inspirations are a hare better than other civs, and he'll get a few more of them over the course of the game. Great Wall with the buffs is at least a half-decent UI, but without the extra builder charge to spam them, is less good as a UI. Crouching Tiger is still an awkward UU, not something you can really plan a strategy around. Sure, policy slots are always nice, and +1 econ slot can certainly give you flexibility to change strategies since you can more often slot in wonder-building cards, or holy site adjacencies, or stuff like that. But it lacks a concrete strategy to build towards.

 

[anonxanemone]

That would feel kind of pointless though for Mongolia.
China's trade game will definitely be risker but the reward is greater which I think is the point on why they designed him like they did.

Is the risk really worth a few more Science and Culture though?

 

[DWilson]

The science strat for Kublai will be heavy internal trade routes until late game, with one civ or city state(s) carefully selected if you need to be able to boost gold income (barring any civ you plan/need to conquer as Mongolia), so that you can save boosts for late game challenging ones, right?

 

[CoconutTank]

IIRC the speed of traders is something predetermined in the code.

Oh, that's a shame then Was mostly just spit-balling ideas haha.

That would feel kind of pointless though for Mongolia.
China's trade game will definitely be risker but the reward is greater which I think is the point on why they designed him like they did.

Tis true that the faster trade routes wouldn't help the Mongolia CUA directly, but being able to establish trade routes more often does allow Kublai to get trade posts faster

Anyway! I still want to try Kublai!Mongolia and Kublai!China at some point, but Vietnam seems more exciting to me at the moment. I have no doubt that Kublai's +1 yellow slot will be greatly appreciated.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I would like to ask this question once again: Anyone remember, or having the picture of, the exact code of "free Eureka and Inspiration" when it was leaked and being found?

I assume (although not sure, I'm neither a modder nor a computer science major) we can tell whether Kublai's ability apply to CS from the entries of the code.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would like to ask this question once again: Anyone remember, or having the picture of, the exact code of "free Eureka and Inspiration" when it was leaked and being found?

I assume (although not sure, I'm neither a modder nor a computer science major) we can tell whether Kublai's ability apply to CS from the entries of the code.

I believe it just says each civ. It does not designate between "major" (playable civs) or "minor" (city-states). That would be a game changer if city-states counted.

 

[UWHabs]

I would like to ask this question once again: Anyone remember, or having the picture of, the exact code of "free Eureka and Inspiration" when it was leaked and being found?

I assume (although not sure, I'm neither a modder nor a computer science major) we can tell whether Kublai's ability apply to CS from the entries of the code.

I think all we know is the base effect name:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...s-mode-is-comming.665414/page-4#post-15978602

-EFFECT_ADJUST_FREE_CIVIC_BOOST_FIRST_TRADING_POST_EACH_CIV
-EFFECT_ADJUST_FREE_TECH_BOOST_FIRST_TRADING_POST_EACH_CIV

No real clarification on whether it could also trigger on minor civs (CS)

 

[Ivan Hunger]

You know what I think would've been better? Every time your trader number X (where X equals your maximum number of trade routes) completes it's first trade route, you get a free eureka/inspiration. Now you're incentivized to get your number of trade routes as high as possible through the use of markets, lighthouses, world congress, and great merchants... that would've been a fun and unique playstyle, and it could theoretically give you bonuses throughout the whole game.

I would've liked this a ton. Oh well.

You're sort of incentivized to maximize trader capacity anyway, especially on larger maps, because a lot of the time you're going to need more than one trader to extend your routes far enough to reach distant civs.

 

[kryat]

I’ve been trying to think of the most generous way to interpret this leader. Germany and Greece both get extra card slots, so they are the most comparable I think.

Frederick gets an extra red card and gets a bonus CS to city states. It’s a sizable boost if you’re into that sort of thing, but virtually nothing if you’re not into conquering city states.

Greece gets an extra wildcard and nothing else.

Kublai getting an extra yellow card, which is generally viewed as better than red and unequivocally worse than wild, and then gets ~10-22 free boosts seems well balanced, even if they are random.

If the boosts are all saved for late game, that can be quite powerful for a science victory. Even if they’re not, it’s like getting a handful of free great scientists (about 3-7ish). That’s not terrible. Especially if you go for great scientists too.

However, even if they’re not saved, I’m predicting the free inspiration is the sleeper hit here. The civics tree can run into few difficult to get inspirations if culture or religion haven’t been your focus. Mongolia will like it to help get to corps and armies faster and China will like it because the extra 10% goes to both.

Meanwhile, the yellow card is going to be amazing regardless. That lets you slot among many, many other options, one more +100% district adjacency card early. That’s huge.

I think he’s balanced just fine, even if they’re more under-the-hood boosts instead of instant gratification abilities.

 

[bengalryan9]

You're sort of incentivized to maximize trader capacity anyway, especially on larger maps, because a lot of the time you're going to need more than one trader to extend your routes far enough to reach distant civs.

Maybe. But if all it's going to get me as one eureka/inspiration when I finally get a route to the last civ I need to connect to then that's a lot of work for a pretty minimal gain IMO.

 

[Caprikel]

If the ability does work with city-states, you would be incentivized to liberate conquered city-states (and conquered civs) in order to use them for free eurekas. This will be especially effective with Mongolia's combat bonuses.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Maybe. But if all it's going to get me as one eureka/inspiration when I finally get a route to the last civ I need to connect to then that's a lot of work for a pretty minimal gain IMO.

True, but that's more of a problem with the fundamental design of trade routes than with Kublai's ability specifically. Unlike in real life, it's better to just send multiple routes to your immediate neighbors than it is to trade with everyone.

There are some benefits, of course. In single player, you get a diplomacy buff for having a trade route. A wider range makes it easier to send a route to city states that request one, as well as take advantage of the Owls of Minerva envoys from active routes. Having at least one route with each of your allies helps alliance points grow faster. But none of those are really worth as much just getting more yields right away.

Maybe the new Corporations mode will give extra incentive to sending trade routes to distant players, especially if they have luxuries you don't have.