[GS] Lack of Desert in Mali Start

[Sostratus]

So I just wrapped up that mali game using the seed I posted.
I intentionally went for diplo but that dragged things out until like 370 something.
Anyways, here's some Empire Lens examples of Suguba/Holy Site abuse. (Using desert folklore, I'm not some pleb. The lens doesn't apply the card/governor bonuses.)
Capital sector:

Spoiler :

Look at that +13 holy site. Mmmm. See all those extra yields in the Sahara El Bedya? Yeah, we got lots of dust storms. I have never heard the word before GS, but Haboob now gives me nightmares.

Area 2:

Spoiler :

This one I used a triangle instead of a crescent, mostly because city placement (There was a city state south of there so i couldn't settle like I wanted) and the river kind of restricted what i could do. In the last 40 or so turns, this area had 3 haboobs. That's why the wheat isn't farmed.

Area 3: purely faith bought districts here:

Spoiler :

Here's a happy little crescent pattern out in the desert. Isn't this tranquil? Kourouassa for a long time literally only had 1 production because I faith bought everything.

I didn't get the ideal setup of a giant blank desert with a river curving just so, but I did okay. Even using just 2 city diamonds, if you use a river that's +7 guaranteed for the sugubas. +10 isn't unrealistic using just 3 cities. In theory you could get 6 cities involved and have a +17, if you really wanted.
The really nice bit about Malinese commerce is you are one of the only people to actually qualify for the full Free market boost since only a harbor/hub triangle can meet the +4 requirement naturally. The desert is just useful to get ridiculous faith yields - mali is almost better at faith than gold.

 

[agonistes]

Frankly, I'm glad we don't get ideal terrain every start for certain civs. It changes things up nicely. For the first game as Mali, sure I'd want some desert. But after that, meh, I find fun in having to adapt to the map.

I blame soccer moms for all of the crying.

 

[Sostratus]

For the first game as Mali, sure I'd want some desert. But after that, meh, I find fun in having to adapt to the map.

The only desert upside for mali is really leveraging their ability for a guaranteed first pantheon.
The trade route ability really only requires one nice flat desert city. Everything else you see if just trying to leverage desert folklore which anyone can do, although mali don't suffer as bad.
If you just want to be filthy rich with some faith on the side you can play them anywhere you want.

 

[Giskler]

Pretty sure the map generation algorithm is busted. I keep getting really bad starts all the time in GS.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

I tried restarting 10 times to get a tundra start for Canada on my lunch break. Didn't even get one. Got plenty of desert though.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Every start I've had with Canada has been a tundra start. Still doesn't help them.
I like having a few desert to make sure I get 1st pantheon with Mali but normally take Earth Goddess. Can still build better cities in the desert than anyone else but can have some cities that are cpable of wonder spamming too.

 

[Piranga]

Does playing on a Shuffle map affect your starting location bias?

I have restarted over 10 games with Mali and not once been near a patch of desert. 1 or 2 desert tiles max. Its been either grasslands or tunda.

 

[AriochIV]

Does playing on a Shuffle map affect your starting location bias?

I have restarted over 10 games with Mali and not once been near a patch of desert. 1 or 2 desert tiles max. Its been either grasslands or tunda.

I don't know but I doubt it, since I was playing on Shuffle.

 

[CultureManiac]

I've had decent enough desert starts for Mali, enough for 3-4 cities. My problem has been getting enough science early in the game, since I can't find good mountains. By the time I get my economy strong enough to mass purchase units I've fallen too far behind in tech.

 

[Victoria]

Over 50% of games with Victoria I do not start on the coast... and that is their preference. This has not changed with GS,

What I noticed is that rivers in desert tiles now not ncessarily spawn floodplains. I had huge desert with rivers in one Mali game, but lack of food.

In my view floodplains have been nerfed. Rivers start off as grass/plain/desert or 1/1 floodplain and need to flood to get where they used to be.

For some reason I cannot get up the excitement to play Mali.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I agree that map generation is terrible. Are there any mods that reliably fix/mitigate this?

 

[Victoria]

Are there any mods that reliably fix/mitigate this?

I imagine @Gedemon will be looking at that area as our resident expert...he's been a bit quiet of late though

 

[avguy2]

I've started about 25 times with Mali. Very mixed results on the maps, but only a few starting points weren't near a desert at all. Some of the maps I've played 20 to 100 turns to see more of the map, check out barbarians etc. Maybe I'm mistaken but I get the feeling resource distribution has changed since GS. Some starts had plenty resources, some were terrible.

In the game I'm actually playing now to finish I started near some desert tiles plus there's a good mix of terrain. Enough desert areas on my continent to get something going.

My starting city has only 1 luxury resource (3 tiles away), 3 bonus resources and zero strategic resources in a 3 tile radius which seems poor. With early settlers it still worked. I'm finding Mali is a cool civ, I imagine for someone who's a better player than me a start without desert is not a big deal. If you settle your second in a desert you can quickly grow it. Plus traderoutes can get a nice bonus.

 

[Gedemon]

I imagine @Gedemon will be looking at that area as our resident expert...he's been a bit quiet of late though

more like quite busy trying to fix his own maps !

I'm afraid I'm no expert when it comes to start biases, my maps are more about TSL or ethnically linked starts (grouping civs by ethnicity, which completely break start bias from terrain BTW)

Yet, YnAMP include the option to add specific resources around a civ TSL (which is easier than trying to place a civilization where those resources exist, which is what the game try to do), and Firaxis kind of used that easier road when they've decided to simply place more mountains/volcano on the continents borders instead of running a real tectonic simulation.

So, it wouldn't be a small task, but it's not impossible to expand the concept and redo the maps generation by doing continents first, then altitude map, then rivers, then set starting position using only latitude and coastal biases, then finally generating specific terrain types, resources and features around specific civilizations.

ATM the game does everything first, then try to fit the civilizations on the resulting map, and of course it can't place every civs on their preferred spots...

Another simpler fix would be to apply the bias only on the human civ, as the AI don't know how to press the restart button and is not programmed to complain.

But don't look at me, my own design would be more to strip all civilizations from their uniques attributes and make them gain new uniques based on their actions and their surrounding.

 

[Draco84]

I finished my Mali game last night (first full game of GS).

I'm not sold that the desert bias is as useful as it sounds, I had a lot of faith thanks to desert folklore, but I'm not convinced I couldn't have gotten just as much and more with Earth Goddess.

I had lots of cities with a decent population, there were 3 big deserts in my map, all my desert cities were terrible, used mostly just for the extra dozen faith per turn.

Flat desert isn't the most attractive place to be with lots of pop, and desert hills are only marginally better. I think I would prefer to start in hilly jungle or even just plains than having a bonush 5-6 faith and food in a few cities.

Where Mali came in handy was getting the pantheon first, followed by buying a prophet (with faith) and taking the perk to purchase theater and science buildings.

 

[cvb]

as the AI don't know how to press the restart button and is not programmed to complain.

Without any doubt, here we really need more improvement. For true immersion in my Civ games, I want the AIplayers comment on the stupid forward settling they encounter, their complains about bad terrain beyond all repair, whining about evil barbarians, badly missing strategic resources and unjustified human behaviour etc.
Icing on the cake: if the majority of civs, which have started in the game (including the wiped out), wants to restart, well, that's it: restart.

 

[bite]

I had to reroll a couple of times to get one, however, I also found that the game had re-enabled some of the map mods and once I turned them off it worked fine

 

[Victoria]

I'm gonna play a Mali game at last (my Eleanor game ended in a CV before I could flip anyone), will just play with what I get regardless

EDIT:I can hear myself laughing

 

[Draco84]

Those are some sandy beaches, maybe that qualifies as desert?

 

[playshogi]

I'm gonna play a Mali game at last (my Eleanor game ended in a CV before I could flip anyone), will just play with what I get regardless

Enjoy playing with a 30% production handicap. Deserts enable Mali to grow pop quickly to offset this (somewhat). Hope it's not Deity!