Lack of Later Era Units??

[Tagma]

It's still early days. Maybe unique units will pad things out; maybe other units will be available through the culture tree; maybe city states will grant special units; maybe there are some other units still to be added.

 

[j51]

It's still early days. Maybe unique units will pad things out; maybe other units will be available through the culture tree; maybe city states will grant special units; maybe there are some other units still to be added.

Hopefully.

I get the idea of trying to cut back on units, but as it looks now, they over did it. A good balance for the assault line would be this:

Swordsmen: come online in 1st tier of Classical era (Iron Working)
Arquebusiers: come online in 2nd tier of Middle Ages (They could move Gunpowder up)
Line Infantry: come online in 1st tier of Industrial era (Military Science)
Infantry: come online in 2nd tier of Modern Era (move Replaceable Parts back)

See? Now each unit gets an era and a half. FIRAXIS, YOU'RE WELCOME.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Look at the tree on Well of Souls: There's clearly three generations of planes. If the differences between a WWI biplane and a WWII prop plane are worth representing, the same could be said for the difference between an arquebus and a musket.

Yes, sorry, missed the biplane.

Ok, the Biplane inclusion is not that interesting historically, but I see gameplay reasons for it - to introduce flight as early as possible. Otherwise it has too short timeframe. Also, they're likely wanted to introduce Airport district earlier.

 

[redwings1340]

Remember that some units are unlocked through the culture tree, not the tech tree. In their game dev, the developers said that the brazillian UU, a battleship replacement, would be unlocked through culture. We're only seeing half the unit tech tree by looking at the science tree, there might be units in between that are unlocked with civics.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, medieval swordsmen didn't differ from classical swordsmen significantly. And although there were a lot of iterations of handheld firearms units, the borders could be drawn in different way. Separating on the point of moving from muzzle-loading weapons and fancy uniforms to breech-loading weapons and khaki is the most significant one. If they needed to decrease the number of upgrades, they did it right.

Actually, no they didn't.
Right now they (apparently) have the musketman-type unit and the Infantry. The musket man seems to equate to the matchlock musket or arquebus.
Let's do a comparison.
The matchlock musket had an effective range of about 100 yards, could be loaded and fired (continuous fire) about once a minute, and, because the musketeer was waving around a lighted match, the men had to be several feet apart to avoid the danger of setting each other on fire or worse, the powder charges they were carrying.

The Fusil, or firelock - the flintlock smoothbore musket that replaced the matchlock, had the same range, but could be fired 2 - 3 times a minute and, not having lighted fire on their persons, the fusiliers could be shoulder to shoulder. Also, virtually simultaneous with the introduction of the flintlock, the socket bayonet was introduced, which gave the musket-wielding infantry a good melee weapon (bayonet-armed men could and did take on swordsmen and spearmen and defeat them) and protection against cavalry.

So, between the two the flintlock or Fusil gives at least twice the shots per minute and twice the shots per yard/meter of frontage, better melee, anti-cavalry bonus but the same range.

The black powder breechloading rifle allowed up to 5 - 6 shots per minute and an effective range of up to 3 - 400 yards - if the black powder smoke allowed you to see any targets: research on real firing ranges during the American Civil War revealed that most firefights still took place at less than 100 yards' range - the same as with the smoothbore muskets of the Napoleonic Wars!

So, the 'rifle' gives at least a doubling of firepower over the flintlock smoothbore and approximately a doubling of the range.

The real change comes less than 40 years after the breechloading blackpowder rifle, with the introduction of smokeless powder and the magazine-fed rifle (Dreyse Needlegun, the first officially-adopted breechloader was 1859, the magazine-fed Mausers and their like were introduced in the 1880s)
The smokeless powder weapons (called 'Great War Infantry' in Civ V, an appallingly bad choice of title for the unit) could fire up to 20 aimed shots per minute to ranges of 400 - 800 yards. Again, the range approximately doubles over the black powder rifle, but without the obscuring smoke and the bullets flying per minute triples.

Now, last point:
The matchlock musket was in general use for about 150 years, until 1700
The flintlock or Firelock musket was in general use for about 150 years, 1700 - 1850
The breechloading black powder rifle was in use for about 25 years: 1860 - 1885
The magazine-rifle-armed infantry persisted for about 50 years: 1885 - 1935

After 1935 you start getting 'modern infantry' (well, World War Two infantry), in which light machine-guns or automatic rifles supplement the rifles down to squad level, and the battalions and regiments have mortars, heavy machine-guns and light cannon or antitank cannon in them.

So, the biggest changes come
Between the 'Musketman' and the 'Fusilier', when the effective firepower doubles AND the melee value increases AND the unit gets some anti-cavalry bonus (bayonet)
And
Between the black-powder rifle and the smokeless-powder rifle, when the firepower approximately triples and the range at least doubles

BUT
To leave out all of these except the matchlock musket man and the 1935+ infantryman is total nonsense.
If for no other reason, both the British/English and French 'Unique Units' - the Imperial Guard and the 'Red Coat' - were armed with the flintlock musket, which has NEVER been depicted in Civ games!

After 6 tries, you'd think they'd get it right, but apparently, it will take at least 7 attempts, or more...

 

[King Jason]

We have access to most recently available full civics tree and there are no units in it aside from the trader, a ship, archeologists, and something else.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Actually, no they didn't.
Right now they (apparently) have the musketman-type unit and the Infantry. The musket man seems to equate to the matchlock musket or arquebus.
Let's do a comparison.
The matchlock musket had an effective range of about 100 yards, could be loaded and fired (continuous fire) about once a minute, and, because the musketeer was waving around a lighted match, the men had to be several feet apart to avoid the danger of setting each other on fire or worse, the powder charges they were carrying.

The Fusil, or firelock - the flintlock smoothbore musket that replaced the matchlock, had the same range, but could be fired 2 - 3 times a minute and, not having lighted fire on their persons, the fusiliers could be shoulder to shoulder. Also, virtually simultaneous with the introduction of the flintlock, the socket bayonet was introduced, which gave the musket-wielding infantry a good melee weapon (bayonet-armed men could and did take on swordsmen and spearmen and defeat them) and protection against cavalry.

So, between the two the flintlock or Fusil gives at least twice the shots per minute and twice the shots per yard/meter of frontage, better melee, anti-cavalry bonus but the same range.

The black powder breechloading rifle allowed up to 5 - 6 shots per minute and an effective range of up to 3 - 400 yards - if the black powder smoke allowed you to see any targets: research on real firing ranges during the American Civil War revealed that most firefights still took place at less than 100 yards' range - the same as with the smoothbore muskets of the Napoleonic Wars!

So, the 'rifle' gives at least a doubling of firepower over the flintlock smoothbore and approximately a doubling of the range.

The real change comes less than 40 years after the breechloading blackpowder rifle, with the introduction of smokeless powder and the magazine-fed rifle (Dreyse Needlegun, the first officially-adopted breechloader was 1859, the magazine-fed Mausers and their like were introduced in the 1880s)
The smokeless powder weapons (called 'Great War Infantry' in Civ V, an appallingly bad choice of title for the unit) could fire up to 20 aimed shots per minute to ranges of 400 - 800 yards. Again, the range approximately doubles over the black powder rifle, but without the obscuring smoke and the bullets flying per minute triples.

Now, last point:
The matchlock musket was in general use for about 150 years, until 1700
The flintlock or Firelock musket was in general use for about 150 years, 1700 - 1850
The breechloading black powder rifle was in use for about 25 years: 1860 - 1885
The magazine-rifle-armed infantry persisted for about 50 years: 1885 - 1935

After 1935 you start getting 'modern infantry' (well, World War Two infantry), in which light machine-guns or automatic rifles supplement the rifles down to squad level, and the battalions and regiments have mortars, heavy machine-guns and light cannon or antitank cannon in them.

So, the biggest changes come
Between the 'Musketman' and the 'Fusilier', when the effective firepower doubles AND the melee value increases AND the unit gets some anti-cavalry bonus (bayonet)
And
Between the black-powder rifle and the smokeless-powder rifle, when the firepower approximately triples and the range at least doubles

BUT
To leave out all of these except the matchlock musket man and the 1935+ infantryman is total nonsense.
If for no other reason, both the British/English and French 'Unique Units' - the Imperial Guard and the 'Red Coat' - were armed with the flintlock musket, which has NEVER been depicted in Civ games!

After 6 tries, you'd think they'd get it right, but apparently, it will take at least 7 attempts, or more...

During WW2 the core infantry still used rifles invented before WW1, so generally WW2 infantry didn't differ that much from WW1 infantry. Assault rifles were rare yet.

So, if we see Musketmen as those with Firelock musket and Infantry as those with Magazine rifle, we cover most of the firearms history. Also, the transition from one to another appeared during the second half of 19th century and matched switch from colorful uniforms to khaki with helmets. This looks like the biggest gear break since the mass adoption of firearms.

 

[Metecury]

Yeah this is my only problem with the gme, the lack of late-midgame units.




Honestly all they need to add for the time being is a riflemen unit to fill in the gap between early and late gunpowder units, the medieval era can work fine with thsee units for a while and I suppose we will get more units with expansions/ patches.

 

[Battlehelm043]

We have access to most recently available full civics tree and there are no units in it aside from the trader, a ship, archeologists, and something else.

This right here is my point; I notice the lack of units and completely understand the dominant factor for this. I am hoping the reason is they still haven't added them in yet due to there being 3 months till launch. My fear is that they have just cut it entirely and are just going to let the musketman ride from Renaissance till the Atomic era. Both trees seem to be lacking units. There are a total of approximately 48 units throughout the game, including the support units such as the ram at present that we know about. While the lower number of types of units is good, it still poses the problem that it would appear too many were cut. right now it would appear early and late game are unit heavy with a bare bones approach to the middle eras.

 

[Battlehelm043]

Yeah this is my only problem with the gme, the lack of late-midgame units.




Honestly all they need to add for the time being is a riflemen unit to fill in the gap between early and late gunpowder units, the medieval era can work fine with thsee units for a while and I suppose we will get more units with expansions/ patches.

I completely agree with this!

 

[stealth_nsk]

Honestly all they need to add for the time being is a riflemen unit to fill in the gap between early and late gunpowder units, the medieval era can work fine with thsee units for a while and I suppose we will get more units with expansions/ patches.

Well, based on the current structure, it's strongly not needed. In Civ6 units upgrade every other era. So:
Warrior (Starting) - Swordsman (Medieval) - Musketman (Renaissance) - Infantry (Modern) - Mech. Infantry (Informational);
Archer (Ancient) - Crossbowman (Medieval);
Spearman (Ancient) - Pikeman (Medieval);
Horseman (early Clasical - a bit rule break here) - Knight (Medieval) - Cavalry (Industrial);

So with this rate having a melee unit between Musketman and Infantry would make those unit too short-lived compared to others.

 

[von_Wurttemburg]

Firaxis, where is my composite bowman?

Where is my composite bowman?

Where is my composite bowman?

Hello guys, did you find my composite bowman?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Firaxis, where is my composite bowman?

Where is my composite bowman?

Where is my composite bowman?

Hello guys, did you find my composite bowman?

Yes, I believe you forgot him in Civ5. Check there.

 

[Haig]

Military units in vanilla Civ5 not in 6:
longswordsman
trebuchet
lancer
rifleman
Giant death robot (heh)

Military units in vanilla Civ6 not in 5:
slinger
battering ram
siege tower
privateer
bombard
machinegun
biplane
(military engineer and medic too, but in a non combat role I guess)

 

[von_Wurttemburg]

Military units in vanilla Civ5 not in 6:
longswordsman
trebuchet
lancer
rifleman
Giant death robot (heh)

You forgot the Composite Bowman.

Military units in vanilla Civ6 not in 5:
slinger
battering ram
siege tower
privateer
bombard
machinegun
biplane
(military engineer and medic too, but in a non combat role I guess)

And Machine Gun and Privateer are in Civ5. Edit: Siege Tower and Battering Ram are in Civ5 too!

Generally speaking, I'm glad to see more unit types, but lack of mid game basic combat units sucks, especially lack of the Composite Bowman.

P.S I think they give too much love to early game(ancient) and late game(modern) units, while too little love to mid game units in Civ6.

 

[Siptah]

Composite Bowman, Machine Gun and Privateer came with the expansions in Civ 5

 

[Battlehelm043]

In looking through some old press releases it would seem that the corp/army combo is set to kick in during the Napoleonic period... Which probably means they cut riflemen and will keep the atrocious harquebus design used as the generic musketman... In re-reading the IGN May 11th article it would seem like the author called musketmen riflemen. I hope I'm wrong about this and they just haven't finished adding in the midgame units. It wouldn't prevent me from playing, but it sure as heck would make me skip as much of the midgame as possible to avoid the eyesore...

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

If the tech tree includes everything what was meant to be in, I have the feeling they are going the BE route with less units for each type.
But still I hope there was a reason the previewers participating in the 150 turns press preview were not allowed to show the later part of the tech tree (besides unrevealing late game information). The reason being that some of units/buildings etc were not implemented in the tech tree yet.

 

[Haig]

You forgot the Composite Bowman.


And Machine Gun and Privateer are in Civ5. Edit: Siege Tower and Battering Ram are in Civ5 too!

Generally speaking, I'm glad to see more unit types, but lack of mid game basic combat units sucks, especially lack of the Composite Bowman.

P.S I think they give too much love to early game(ancient) and late game(modern) units, while too little love to mid game units in Civ6.

I wrote about _vanilla_ civ5 and civ6 without any expansions.

Composite bowman, machine gun and privateer came with Gods & Kings expansion and battering ram and siege tower were unique units in Civ 5. Now they are for all.

 

[zwei833]

If the tech tree includes everything what was meant to be in, I have the feeling they are going the BE route with less units for each type.

If it is then it is not a good design, as BE is a game about only Future era, less units for each type may make sense. But Civ is game cover ancient to future era, lack of unit tiers is bad.

In looking through some old press releases it would seem that the corp/army combo is set to kick in during the Napoleonic period... Which probably means they cut riflemen and will keep the atrocious harquebus design used as the generic musketman... In re-reading the IGN May 11th article it would seem like the author called musketmen riflemen. I hope I'm wrong about this and they just haven't finished adding in the midgame units. It wouldn't prevent me from playing, but it sure as heck would make me skip as much of the midgame as possible to avoid the eyesore...

Not to me. Basic military unit variety is important to me. Lack of Longswordsman and Rifleman may prevent me from buying Civ6, unless there are some UU revealed in the future really interest me, or until:
1) Firaxis add those units in expansions/dlcs, or
2) Civ6 proves its modabilty.

P.S. I'm pretty satisfy with other things in Civ6, so I really hope Civ6 would has good modabilty so I can add units by myself.