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Lakes ridiculously overpowered in early game, plz nerf

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by nj666, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Yeah i think the same, cause i might play better that 1 Emperor human player, but i'm pretty sure that 2 Emperor human players together can take me down easily
     
  2. nj666

    nj666 Warlord

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    Tradition is useless in MP, it does not scale as your empire grows, so effects diminish quickly. Only Progress and Authority are viable choices. And they can tolerate 2 turn delay, no problem.

    AFAIK it just gives additional fixed amount of culture and that's it.

    That means that from every lake tile worked city get 1 more food ( 3 - 2 ) to grow, so it grows exponentially until all lake tiles are worked on. And then grows linearly, but by that time its population will exceed non-lake player's by 2-3 times.

    Nonsense. It's just additional 3-5 culturr early at the expense of city growth. Lake city will grow and catch up these 5 culture quickly and then proceed to snowball.

    But not within first 5 turns. You just delay culture by 2-3 turns but get rapid city growth.

    Ok. What did I do wrong by making settlers and archer in game where neighbour player was 3 times ahead in everything (because of lake) and he had horses (but not me) and he had 3 city states (i had none)?

    Because he had 5 horses near capital and I had none. Also his lake accelerated his horseman too much. I only had time to build 2 cities and archer, and then saw his horsrman and there was nothing i could do.

    On turn 5? Before making worker and second city? Wtf? I'm talking about EARLY game, first 10-15 turns (on standard).
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't really know what to say other than you are simply wrong. If you continue to play like this, you are simply bad at this game, and we cannot take balance suggestions from players who are willingly playing poorly to avoid admiting they were wrong
     
  4. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    With respect, @nj666... many of the players here are very good. And they're not just good in singleplayer, they play multiplayer, too. And despite them being very good, and despite them playing multiplayer, they don't seem to think lakes are a problem (albeit some people have expressed reservations about the Purity pantheon). So maybe you just have to learn to play a little better? This forum does organize MP games from time-to-time. Why not participate and see if you can learn from other players? Because, and I play MP, a fair bit, in my opinion lakes are... so-so. They fall off very quickly. A farm triangle on Plains produces 3 food 1 production, equal to Lakes, and you can have that within 15 turns or so of your first worker. As soon as Civil Service comes online, lakes are even further behind. Their value is heavily concentrated in the early-game, but they're not enough to go rampant unless you've been making mistakes elsewhere, which it sounds like you did.
     
  5. Voker57

    Voker57 Warlord

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  6. Paramecium

    Paramecium Prince

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    I am a little bit highly tempted to participate, what are your normal settings and most importantly, when do you guys play normally, in central european standard time?^^

    Just have to say, that everything above Emperor I will likely get handed my a** to me by the AI...

    EDIT: If you speak of early game, how is it possible, that the lucky guy comes with horsemen on turn 5?
     
  7. nj666

    nj666 Warlord

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    In this situation NOTHING could be done. If you think there was then tell me.

    If you have 2 aggressive Emperor AIs nearby then it's constant combat zone. You can't quickly draw them back because they build units on insane speed. I control units really, really good and casualties are like 20 to 1 but they still spam units faster than I kill them, even getting close to city is nearly impossible. And then War Wearyness makes things worse, to the point when I have to accept peace treaty, during which they build another tons of units and when peace treaty ends attack me again. I have to build units in most cities just to be able to defend, and pay tons of gold to support them.

    MEANWHILE, OTHER PLAYERS SIT PEACEFULLY ON OTHER CONTINENT AND ADVANCE TO SINGULARITY.


    Where did I said that? He had lake on turn one, and we were discussing food vs culture in early game. Horseman ofc came out later but still to early to be dealt with without lake.
     
  8. Voker57

    Voker57 Warlord

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    There are typical game settings & times under the link.
     
  9. Voker57

    Voker57 Warlord

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    Protip: don't piss off powerful neighbors, like you usually do (AIs or not)

    Also, I never had problem with fighting Emperors, tactical AI is still very stupid.
     
  10. Paramecium

    Paramecium Prince

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    @nj666

    If you think Emperor AI is impossible, how would you explain that there are people who can defeat Deity AIs ?
     
  11. nj666

    nj666 Warlord

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    You mean being some kind of slave dog to other player and beg for mercy? Sorry, no.
    1) It makes game not fun
    2) I will lose anyway in the end
    3) There is russian moral/ethics code called "ponyatiya" which I take very seriously. It explicitly forbids any such behavior.
    And being slave dog to AIs is even worse.

    Yes but when it outnumbers you 50 to 1 it doesn't help.

    It's not impossible, it can't actually beat me but it can ruin all hopes to compete with other players in MP who do not have aggressive AIs nearby. I have to sacrifice empire's development to produce more units, and I can only defend with them, because when I finally clear out AI's huge attack wave my War Wearyness is already unbearable and I have to make peace. So it goes on infinetely.
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Magic. Other people are naturally lucky, remember?

    I don't know why you insist on convincing nj666 about anything. Naturally unlucky people are naturally impossible to argue with.
     
    L29Ah and vyyt like this.
  13. nj666

    nj666 Warlord

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    Can you please Moderator Action: <SNIP> and stop answering questions intended for me? Also I already answered this question in previous comment, go read it.

    Moderator Action: The number one goal at CivFanatics is civil discussion. This is not and we also have rules concerning language. This hostility must cease. leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
  14. Voker57

    Voker57 Warlord

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    Fun for me.
    I do diplomacy with other players and AI and win.
    Adherence to Ponyatia is not in feature-list of VP. I think you should stick to DotA.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  15. nj666

    nj666 Warlord

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    The only way of "diplomacy" with player that is three times ahead of you is begging for mercy, which seriously violates Ponyatiya. I do diplomacy when possible, but only as equals.

    It isn't related to VP. But Ponyatiya must be respected regardless if it's real life, game or porn fantasy. Otherwise it's path to Opuskanie, which is permanent.
     
    Owlbebach likes this.
  16. Voker57

    Voker57 Warlord

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    No, it's making assaulting you economically unviable. You cannot talk as an equal if you're not.

    I think you picked wrong pantheon and that's why you lose at life.
     
    L29Ah likes this.
  17. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Really? I think tradition scales way better than Authority. And i'm sure it is good for MP
    You research path was wrong and your cities were placed badly
    I meant future monopoly, i.e. you start on 2 Dyes and 1 extra lux.
    This is why i tell everyone that Pangea is best for MP, THIS is actually true.
     
  18. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    If you're going to self-impose ridiculous rules that were generated from prison culture, you can hardly be surprised if you fail to get ahead - in Civ or in life.
     
  19. Voker57

    Voker57 Warlord

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    In that game, he rushed his first Settler across the continent to stick it near L29Ah's capital and immediately purchased precious lake tiles.
     
  20. nj666

    nj666 Warlord

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    Yes, so that means defeat. Defeat because of of overpowered lake.
    Being a slave dog also means defeat, just a bit later. So it wouldn't be a solution anyway.

    What?

    Authority scales on war activity, so if you are in constant wars - you will benefit from it. If you are peaceful, don't take Authority, problem solved.

    Research path was to 1) check if I have any horses nearby to determine where to build cities 2) reveal more resources such as Deer 3) improve Jade 4) make archer to have at least some means of defence until better units available. Wtf is wrong with that?
    And my capital was indeed placed wrong, no lake nearby. Settler should have wandered first 15 turns to find lake.

    How exactly would early lake prevent you from having future monopoly on anything?

    Still won't solve everything, I had some games when I had human player on one side and aggressive warmonger AI on other. So player was peacefully advancing while I was constantly Moderator Action: <SNIP> by AI in endless wars, finally player got so far ahead that I gave up.

    Moderator Action: Please do not use inappropriate language. leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017

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