Lakes ridiculously overpowered in early game, plz nerf

[Owlbebach]

@Owlebebach:

That is actually a good idea, I think they had a thread somewhere to look for additional players and it seemed to me to be european time zone. So, maybe give it a shot and pls make screenshots/videos ...

The fact that you normally play Deity shouldnt be relevant, because being good in SP has clearly and absolutly nothing to say how you perform in MP ...

Yeah i think the same, cause i might play better that 1 Emperor human player, but i'm pretty sure that 2 Emperor human players together can take me down easily

 

[nj666]

Opening your social policy 2 turns earlier is far more valuable (its worth 4 food and 4 culture if you go tradition)

Tradition is useless in MP, it does not scale as your empire grows, so effects diminish quickly. Only Progress and Authority are viable choices. And they can tolerate 2 turn delay, no problem.

Culture generate culture, so it snowalls

AFAIK it just gives additional fixed amount of culture and that's it.

New citizens eat 2 food, which causes food not to snowball

That means that from every lake tile worked city get 1 more food ( 3 - 2 ) to grow, so it grows exponentially until all lake tiles are worked on. And then grows linearly, but by that time its population will exceed non-lake player's by 2-3 times.

Working the dye will be farther ahead everytime in every way.

Nonsense. It's just additional 3-5 culturr early at the expense of city growth. Lake city will grow and catch up these 5 culture quickly and then proceed to snowball.

The realization that culture is the most valuable yield (by far) within the first 50 turns is one I believe all experienced players will agree with

But not within first 5 turns. You just delay culture by 2-3 turns but get rapid city growth.

one thing that really surprizes me is that you do not come here to ask "what did i do wrong?"

Ok. What did I do wrong by making settlers and archer in game where neighbour player was 3 times ahead in everything (because of lake) and he had horses (but not me) and he had 3 city states (i had none)?

Why he did have Horseman and you did not?

Because he had 5 horses near capital and I had none. Also his lake accelerated his horseman too much. I only had time to build 2 cities and archer, and then saw his horsrman and there was nothing i could do.

If you have Dyes monopoly

On turn 5? Before making worker and second city? Wtf? I'm talking about EARLY game, first 10-15 turns (on standard).

 

[CrazyG]

AFAIK it just gives additional fixed amount of culture and that's it.

But not within first 5 turns. You just delay culture by 2-3 turns but get rapid city growth.

I don't really know what to say other than you are simply wrong. If you continue to play like this, you are simply bad at this game, and we cannot take balance suggestions from players who are willingly playing poorly to avoid admiting they were wrong

 

[CrabHelmet]

With respect, @nj666... many of the players here are very good. And they're not just good in singleplayer, they play multiplayer, too. And despite them being very good, and despite them playing multiplayer, they don't seem to think lakes are a problem (albeit some people have expressed reservations about the Purity pantheon). So maybe you just have to learn to play a little better? This forum does organize MP games from time-to-time. Why not participate and see if you can learn from other players? Because, and I play MP, a fair bit, in my opinion lakes are... so-so. They fall off very quickly. A farm triangle on Plains produces 3 food 1 production, equal to Lakes, and you can have that within 15 turns or so of your first worker. As soon as Civil Service comes online, lakes are even further behind. Their value is heavily concentrated in the early-game, but they're not enough to go rampant unless you've been making mistakes elsewhere, which it sounds like you did.

 

[Voker57]

Everybody is welcome to see @nj666 and Amazing Swedish Lucky Bastard @L29Ah fight in realtime: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gmt-3-evenings-multiplayer.624117/

nj would probably wuss out of Deity game though, he lately said that on Emperor AIs are impossible

 

[Paramecium]

I am a little bit highly tempted to participate, what are your normal settings and most importantly, when do you guys play normally, in central european standard time?^^

Just have to say, that everything above Emperor I will likely get handed my a** to me by the AI...

EDIT: If you speak of early game, how is it possible, that the lucky guy comes with horsemen on turn 5?

 

[nj666]

So maybe you just have to learn to play a little better?

In this situation NOTHING could be done. If you think there was then tell me.

he lately said that on Emperor AIs are impossible

If you have 2 aggressive Emperor AIs nearby then it's constant combat zone. You can't quickly draw them back because they build units on insane speed. I control units really, really good and casualties are like 20 to 1 but they still spam units faster than I kill them, even getting close to city is nearly impossible. And then War Wearyness makes things worse, to the point when I have to accept peace treaty, during which they build another tons of units and when peace treaty ends attack me again. I have to build units in most cities just to be able to defend, and pay tons of gold to support them.

MEANWHILE, OTHER PLAYERS SIT PEACEFULLY ON OTHER CONTINENT AND ADVANCE TO SINGULARITY.

EDIT: If you speak of early game, how is it possible, that the lucky guy comes with horsemen on turn 5?

Where did I said that? He had lake on turn one, and we were discussing food vs culture in early game. Horseman ofc came out later but still to early to be dealt with without lake.

 

[Voker57]

am a little bit highly tempted to participate, what are your normal settings and most importantly, when do you guys play normally, in central european standard time?^^

There are typical game settings & times under the link.

 

[Voker57]

In this situation NOTHING could be done. If you think there was then tell me.


If you have 2 aggressive Emperor AIs nearby then it's constant combat zone. You can't quickly draw them back because they build units on insane speed. I control units really, really good and casualties are like 20 to 1 but they still spam units faster than I kill them, even getting close to city is nearly impossible. And then War Wearyness makes things worse, to the point when I have to accept peace treaty, during which they build another tons of units and when peace treaty ends attack me again. I have to build units in most cities just to be able to defend, and pay tons of gold to support them.

MEANWHILE, OTHER PLAYERS SIT PEACEFULLY ON OTHER CONTINENT AND ADVANCE TO SINGULARITY.

Protip: don't piss off powerful neighbors, like you usually do (AIs or not)

Also, I never had problem with fighting Emperors, tactical AI is still very stupid.

 

[Paramecium]

@nj666

If you think Emperor AI is impossible, how would you explain that there are people who can defeat Deity AIs ?

 

[nj666]

Protip: don't piss off powerful neighbors, like you usually do (AIs or not)

You mean being some kind of slave dog to other player and beg for mercy? Sorry, no.
1) It makes game not fun
2) I will lose anyway in the end
3) There is russian moral/ethics code called "ponyatiya" which I take very seriously. It explicitly forbids any such behavior.
And being slave dog to AIs is even worse.

Also, I never had problem with fighting Emperors, tactical AI is still very stupid.

Yes but when it outnumbers you 50 to 1 it doesn't help.

If you think Emperor AI is impossible, how would you explain that there are people who can defeat Deity AIs ?

It's not impossible, it can't actually beat me but it can ruin all hopes to compete with other players in MP who do not have aggressive AIs nearby. I have to sacrifice empire's development to produce more units, and I can only defend with them, because when I finally clear out AI's huge attack wave my War Wearyness is already unbearable and I have to make peace. So it goes on infinetely.

 

[tu_79]

@nj666

If you think Emperor AI is impossible, how would you explain that there are people who can defeat Deity AIs ?

Magic. Other people are naturally lucky, remember?

I don't know why you insist on convincing nj666 about anything. Naturally unlucky people are naturally impossible to argue with.

 

[nj666]

Magic. Other people are naturally lucky, remember?

Can you please Moderator Action: <SNIP> and stop answering questions intended for me? Also I already answered this question in previous comment, go read it.

Moderator Action: The number one goal at CivFanatics is civil discussion. This is not and we also have rules concerning language. This hostility must cease. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Voker57]

1) It makes game not fun

Fun for me.

2) I will lose anyway in the end

I do diplomacy with other players and AI and win.

3) There is russian moral/ethics code called "ponyatiya" which I take very seriously. It explicitly forbids any such behavior.

Adherence to Ponyatia is not in feature-list of VP. I think you should stick to DotA.

 

[nj666]

I do diplomacy with other players and AI and win

The only way of "diplomacy" with player that is three times ahead of you is begging for mercy, which seriously violates Ponyatiya. I do diplomacy when possible, but only as equals.

Adherence to Ponyatia is not in feature-list of VP. I think you should stick to DotA.

It isn't related to VP. But Ponyatiya must be respected regardless if it's real life, game or porn fantasy. Otherwise it's path to Opuskanie, which is permanent.

 

[Voker57]

The only way of "diplomacy" with player that is three times ahead of you is begging for mercy, which seriously violates Ponyatiya. I do diplomacy when possible, but only as equals.

No, it's making assaulting you economically unviable. You cannot talk as an equal if you're not.

It isn't related to VP. But Ponyatiya must be respected regardless if it's real life, game or porn fantasy. Otherwise it's path to Opuskanie, which is permanent.

I think you picked wrong pantheon and that's why you lose at life.

 

[Owlbebach]

Tradition is useless in MP, it does not scale as your empire grows, so effects diminish quickly.

Really? I think tradition scales way better than Authority. And i'm sure it is good for MP

Ok. What did I do wrong by making settlers and archer in game where neighbour player was 3 times ahead in everything (because of lake) and he had horses (but not me) and he had 3 city states (i had none)?

You research path was wrong and your cities were placed badly

On turn 5? Before making worker and second city? Wtf? I'm talking about EARLY game, first 10-15 turns (on standard).

I meant future monopoly, i.e. you start on 2 Dyes and 1 extra lux.

MEANWHILE, OTHER PLAYERS SIT PEACEFULLY ON OTHER CONTINENT AND ADVANCE TO SINGULARITY.

This is why i tell everyone that Pangea is best for MP, THIS is actually true.

 

[CrabHelmet]

If you're going to self-impose ridiculous rules that were generated from prison culture, you can hardly be surprised if you fail to get ahead - in Civ or in life.

 

[Voker57]

You research path was wrong and your cities were placed badly

In that game, he rushed his first Settler across the continent to stick it near L29Ah's capital and immediately purchased precious lake tiles.

 

[nj666]

You cannot talk as an equal if you're not.

Yes, so that means defeat. Defeat because of of overpowered lake.
Being a slave dog also means defeat, just a bit later. So it wouldn't be a solution anyway.

I think you picked wrong pantheon and that's why you lose at life.

What?

I think tradition scales way better than Authority. And i'm sure it is good for MP

Authority scales on war activity, so if you are in constant wars - you will benefit from it. If you are peaceful, don't take Authority, problem solved.

You research path was wrong and your cities were placed badly

Research path was to 1) check if I have any horses nearby to determine where to build cities 2) reveal more resources such as Deer 3) improve Jade 4) make archer to have at least some means of defence until better units available. Wtf is wrong with that?
And my capital was indeed placed wrong, no lake nearby. Settler should have wandered first 15 turns to find lake.

I meant future monopoly

How exactly would early lake prevent you from having future monopoly on anything?

This is why i tell everyone that Pangea is best for MP, THIS is actually true.

Still won't solve everything, I had some games when I had human player on one side and aggressive warmonger AI on other. So player was peacefully advancing while I was constantly Moderator Action: <SNIP> by AI in endless wars, finally player got so far ahead that I gave up.

Moderator Action: Please do not use inappropriate language. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889