Lakes ridiculously overpowered in early game, plz nerf

[ElliotS]

Actually, if you work lake then your city grows fast and then you are able to work lake AND dyes. And your city continues to grow while also working many tiles.


you just have to wait on it first 5-10 turns, then your population boom starts and you can get both culture and food, and quickly compensate for these 'uncultured' 10 turns.
I'm sorry, but did you attend math at school?

The Dunning-Kruger Effect, everyone! For what it's worth CrazyG literally teaches math IIRC, and you deserve an F. Here is a graph to describe this 'conversation'. Get off Mount Stupid, and head back under your bridge.

 

[Infixo]

I vote Sweden gets an unrealistic but balanced no-lake bias.

There are 95700 lakes in Sweden larger than 100x100m...

 

[Gazebo]

There are 95700 lakes in Sweden larger than 100x100m...

If that’s the case then why didn’t Sweden found religion first IRL? Bad pantheon choice, Norse folk. Noobs.

G

 

[Infixo]

If that’s the case then why didn’t Sweden found religion first IRL? Bad pantheon choice, Norse folk. Noobs.
G

Busy with pillaging...

 

[nj666]

So he rushed directly horsemen, ignoring everything else?

no, he also made more cities than me and cities were larger than my. He also was trying to construct Stonehedge but Emperor AI was faster iirc. He had one more policy and earlier worker. As I said, he was ahead in everything thanks to population boom. Oh, and he also had 3 city states near capital while I had none.

why do you have at that point just one archer, it is hunting, which is a tier 1 tech

I had jade near capital so I wanted to improve it, also I researched animal husbandry and found no horses nearby, so i tried to get bronze working to see if there's any iron.
I built shrine, monument, 2 settlers (attempt to catch up which failed) and then archer, and then saw his horseman nearing my cities. Yeah of course I could skip settlers and just spam warriors and archers, right?

it takes much more then a few horses to capture a capital early on...

He doesn't need my capital. I had 2 cities newly built with defence 5, he would have captured both of them in 3-4 turns. After that he would have 6 cities and most of continent while I was sitting in horsehockey capital with population 3. Are you telling I'd be able to recover from that?

 

[Paramecium]

You just researched Bronze Working to have a look at iron and no other reason at that moment? Like it sounds to me, all that happened somewhere between turn 50 to 100. And it doesnt sound like you were direct neighbours, but still you guys play so aggressivly that you ignore the AI and just go killing yourselfs?
When you had BW, why didnt you build spearmen?

It is just hard for me to believe that your build order was just shrine ->monument-> settler ->settler -> archer and then he had 5 horsemen at your door...

If you would enlighten us, you would have to be more specific, which civs were involved, what was the general terrain around your civs, ressources, tech order, policies etc.

But if you worked only Jade and no food, it is quite clear that your capital wont grow, but didnt you have any possibilty to get a worker?

 

[matlajs]

If that’s the case then why didn’t Sweden found religion first IRL? Bad pantheon choice, Norse folk. Noobs.

but they have found many more of gods later.

 

[L29Ah]

no, he also made more cities than me and cities were larger than my. He also was trying to construct Stonehedge but Emperor AI was faster iirc. He had one more policy and earlier worker. As I said, he was ahead in everything thanks to population boom. Oh, and he also had 3 city states near capital while I had none.

Now you're just lying. Stop flooding this forum with your bullfeathers plz, so we won't need to publish the saves of your poor play.

 

[matlajs]

anyway. many of you here suggesting not to play communitas for balance issues. i have to argue about this. communitas, while you can have a case like lakes , people starting on tundra also are not hopelesly lost, because communitas actually offers fair amount of bonus resources. anyway, i don't like the changes to god of stars and sky. 8 tile lake has to be connected before you can work it. so he either had to buy those tiles or pick tradition. in that case you could spend your money elsewhere and have advantage in another aspect progress. food itself is worthless if people have nothing worth to work. so true problem are horses then? nerf it?

 

[nj666]

You just researched Bronze Working to have a look at iron and no other reason at that moment?

To also build spearman because by that time I discovered he had 5 horses near capital and needed something more serious than archers.

When you had BW, why didnt you build spearmen?

I started building it but his horseman came earlier than I finished it.

It is just hard for me to believe that your build order was just shrine ->monument-> settler ->settler -> archer and then he had 5 horsemen at your door...

One horseman. But obviously he was building more of them fast. Anyway, one horseman was enough to take all my cities but capital, as they had defence 5. It was fudging early game, ok? It's just lake that sped things up for him.

But if you worked only Jade and no food, it is quite clear that your capital wont grow

Where did you get that from?
Well actually I had jade and some plains tiles, that's all. Not even wheat. He had lots of grassland tiles, 8-tile lake, 5 horses near capital, 3 city states in distance like 8-10 tiles from capital which he obviously discovered early and they gave him bonuses. But, still, it's the lake that was the most unbalanced there.
And my capital didn't have time to grow beyond 3 because I was building settlers. Or should I have just sit in my capital? It was fudging lake that accelerated him so much that he had time for everything.

Now you're just lying.

No I'm not.

8 tile lake has to be connected before you can work it.

His settler spawned adjactent to 8-tile lake AND horses. And also 2 silks iirc.

people starting on tundra also are not hopelesly lost

Ha ha, nice one.

communitas actually offers fair amount of bonus resources

We play with "sparse resources" setting.

food itself is worthless if people have nothing worth to work

They can just work on tiles and get production, that alone makes early population boom easy victory. But he also had resources such as silk.

so true problem are horses then? nerf it?

No, true problem are lakes which lead to exponential growth of capital and easy victory by rush or by long-term snowballing.

 

[Giza]

Lakes and the purity pantheon is strong in the early game, but it's effect is less evident later. You definetly get a fast religion and fast growth, but I found that later in the game, i was really lacking in gold and production. Your cities grow fast, but with rampant poverty, almost negative income and less places to build improvements that give you gold and production, like villages or mines. 2 production (with the pantheon) is good in the early game, but it is not good enough in the mid-game.

Also, lakes do not improve much as the game progresses. So relying on them is basically a tradeoff between the early game and mid and late game.

However, this lake/purity combo is definetly very potent with the netherlands. In the mid game, you get lots of spots to place polders, which give you the same food/production as lakes, and add the much needed gold. So it makes for a nice transition. But with other civs, the lack of production and income really kicks in around the end of classical.

Also, Communitas is a special case because it generates lots of lakes (too much in my opinion).

 

[Paramecium]

Hm, sorry with no exact details, it is quite hard to help you. What I can say from my perspective is that lakes are strong and helpfull early in the game, but without the pantheon or aztec or imperialism finisher, they fall off around medieval ages.
And I just can repeat myself, play another map script. Lakes are fine as they are now...

Btw, how much do you play the SP part of VP? On which difficulty do you feel comfortable? And the same question would go to the other players.

It is just hard to say, but if I see that you use a forum to discuss with your fellow playmates about such a simple "fix" you guys could agree with each other in privacy, I cant help but that makes you just looking like a sore loser...

 

[randomnub]

I'd love for nj666 opponent to come entertain us as well now. He won and he wasn't Sweden?

 

[nj666]

Lakes and the purity pantheon is strong in the early game, but it's effect is less evident later.

Often there is no 'later'.
Also it starts snowballing which continues throughout the game.

lakes are strong and helpfull early in the game, but without the pantheon or aztec or imperialism finisher, they fall off around medieval ages.

In multiplayer, early game is the most important part. It's where everything starts, and if you are 3x stronger in early game it will be extremely hard for others to catch up later.

Btw, how much do you play the SP part of VP? On which difficulty do you feel comfortable? And the same question would go to the other players.

SP is for Moderator Action: <SNIP>

Moderator Action: Please do not troll in the forums.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[RAuer2]

SP is for <SNIP> imho.

Edit: Can you clarify what you mean here?

 

[DarkZero]

Oh my frieds,

Edit: Can you clarify what you mean here?

Clearly he meant single player games on civ v are from autistic people only, I am amazed as me merely saying "hell" means I am out of control angry and brings moderators to the tread, yet calling hundreds of thousands of people autistic gets a free pass.

Moderator Action: If you have an issue with a moderator, please start a conversation (PM) with them. Public Discussion of Moderator Action, or inaction, is not allowed here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[CrazyG]

Actually, if you work lake then your city grows fast and then you are able to work lake AND dyes. And your city continues to grow while also working many tiles.

you just have to wait on it first 5-10 turns, then your population boom starts and you can get both culture and food, and quickly compensate for these 'uncultured' 10 turns.
I'm sorry, but did you attend math at school?

If you settle near a lake on standard speed, you grow in 5 turns working dyes and 4 turns working the lake. The population coming one turn earlier is worht only 1 hammer and 1 culture. You gave up 4 culture to get those yields meager benefits. Opening your social policy 2 turns earlier is far more valuable (its worth 4 food and 4 culture if you go tradition). Culture generate culture, so it snowalls. New citizens eat 2 food, which causes food not to snowball. The city manager himself will know to work a jungle dye before a lake, you are actually worse than the AI right now (no offense G)

Load a game and try both approaches. Working the dye will be farther ahead everytime in every way. I'd even consider working a perfurme (2 food, 1 culture) before I work that lake. Even if I get could 4 food from a granary I still build monument first. A point of culture is worth more than a point of food. If you have not yet realized this you have a lot to learn about this game. Another example, 1 culture for every 2 followers is widely considered an overall stronger belief than 1 food for 1 follower.

The realization that culture is the most valuable yield (by far) within the first 50 turns is one I believe all experienced players will agree with. There are two possiblities currently, either you are a revolutionarily good player, but you still lose every single time (I'd bet my entire bank account that a save game would disprove this), or you are wrong and won't begin winning until you begin to listen others advice. At this point its your choice, learn from your mistakes or continue losing

 

[Owlbebach]

@nj666 one thing that really surprizes me is that you do not come here to ask "what did i do wrong?". Instead you ask "plz nerf something that i lost to". I won't call you stupid or bad and i do not want to be disrespectful, but hell, do you really think that whatever you made was the most optimal strategy? Could you please invite me to your next game?

i lost because opponent got 3 times ahead of me because of 8-tile lake and 5 horses near capital and rushed me with horseman while i only built first archer to defend my small, lakeless cities. Nothing could be done in this situation

Why he did have Horseman and you did not? This was clearly not because of Lakes. If you play multiplayer you definetely should play strategic balance next time.

if its tile-by-tile comparison - maybe. but lake is rarely 1 tile, usually its 4 or more. also early food does not give immediate benefit, but rather allows city to grow fast and catchup benefits of 'culture' tiles or everything else. i.e. you can spam settlers and find and take many other luxury tiles around you.

you just have to wait on it first 5-10 turns, then your population boom starts and you can get both culture and food, and quickly compensate for these 'uncultured' 10 turns.
I'm sorry, but did you attend math at school?

This two sentences above clearly indicates that you do not understand game mechanics well enough. In the early game you have 1 building that provides culture - Monument it is. So before 2nd Monument you have 3 culture per turn. If you have Dyes monopoly - you have +100% culture for the first 15 turns and +66% of culture for the next 30 turns. This is a huge advantage and it is by far stronger start than 8-tile Lake (whithout Purity)

I had jade near capital so I wanted to improve it, also I researched animal husbandry and found no horses nearby, so i tried to get bronze working to see if there's any iron.
I built shrine, monument, 2 settlers (attempt to catch up which failed) and then archer, and then saw his horseman nearing my cities. Yeah of course I could skip settlers and just spam warriors and archers, right?

So you researched Hunting, Walls, Husbandry, Bronze, Pottery (not in right order, but it does not matter) at least. All this together is 70-80 turns at least (side note: your research path was wrong). And you say that you died to horseman? There is only one option: your cities were not put in defensive position AND you had no army. On turn 70 you can't capture cities without Catapults or huge amount of Archers

 

[MorphBer]

Please @nj666 continue to write about your MP games and the "natural lucky" opponents (@L29Ah ) please provide savegames or videos/screens from your play. It would be a great view I suppose!

 

[Paramecium]

@Owlebebach:

That is actually a good idea, I think they had a thread somewhere to look for additional players and it seemed to me to be european time zone. So, maybe give it a shot and pls make screenshots/videos ...

The fact that you normally play Deity shouldnt be relevant, because being good in SP has clearly and absolutly nothing to say how you perform in MP ...