Lancer and Western Native American Rifleman (September 4, 2004)

[utahjazz7]

Well, here are a couple of .bmp previews. I hope these'll work for whoever needs them.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

For European cavalry, lances had almost disappeared during the 18th century. They came back again during the Napoelonic wars, and then were used during the 19th century, and still in WWI.

Really? But wouldn't the Lancer get shot before it could attack?

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

Really? But wouldn't the Lancer get shot before it could attack?

The Lancers were still to see action in WWII. They didn't lose out until the arrival of portable machine guns and armor with improved battlefield mobility over horses.

 

[Communisto]

weren't they used in WWII by some of the balkan/eastern european (poland) countries?

 

[Steph]

Really? But wouldn't the Lancer get shot before it could attack?

Obviously, there role wasn't to charge dead on entrenched machineguns.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I was assuming the 19th century Rifles would be enough to render Melee weapons obsolete.

 

[Aluminium]

The role of Lancers or Uhlans was to overrun infantry groups (shock attack). The main weapon is not the lance. It's the weight and speed of the horse.

I would give them a higher attack but lower defense than the CIV3 Cavalry. Perhaps sudden attack against foot units too.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

The question is... how likely were the Lancers to actually hit the soldiers?

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

I was assuming the 19th century Rifles would be enough to render Melee weapons obsolete.

The lancer at display here is a napoleonic age soldier. At this time infantry would still fight in line, supported by field artillery positioned behind these, cavalry being used to cover the flanks, to harrass the enemy formations by hit & run tactics, to charge right into the enemy lines, to scout, as well as operating behind the enemy front to attack enemy train columns.

The main weapon for most cavalry of that time was the saber (given a saber is even shorter than a lance I would assume some might now ask if the chance of hitting a soldier would be even smaller). In fact the Saber during the early days of the 19th century was used for running through the opponent- over the decades it would change in weight, dimension, handling and usage to be finally used to slice through infantry while riding past.

Metal weapons worked just nicely!

To contrast the average chance of shooting a charging lancer with a rifle of napoleonic days just picture yourself trying to shoot a motorcyclist on a yamaha with an M-16...

 

[Midnight Piper]

The question is... how likely were the Lancers to actually hit the soldiers?

The lancers generally charged once enemy ranks had been 'disirganized' by the enemy line or artillery, or attacked from flank or rear positions, rather than charging into an organized line of enemy musketmen.

The reason those soldiers fought in line, aiming and firing en masse, was that the weapons were horribly inaccurate. One mass of humanity firing at another mass of humanity was able to hit something, but hitting individual targets was pretty improbable.

The real question is, how likely were the poor foot soldiers - their ranks disorganized, broken, or struck from a flank - to hit those charging lancers and stop those deadly sabers... I'd be tempted to give lancers a zone of control along with a high attack/low defense to simulate those sudden attacks...

 

[spincrus]

Ah the WNR is much appreciated, thanks a lot.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

The lancers generally charged once enemy ranks had been 'disirganized' by the enemy line or artillery, or attacked from flank or rear positions, rather than charging into an organized line of enemy musketmen.

The reason those soldiers fought in line, aiming and firing en masse, was that the weapons were horribly inaccurate. One mass of humanity firing at another mass of humanity was able to hit something, but hitting individual targets was pretty improbable.

The real question is, how likely were the poor foot soldiers - their ranks disorganized, broken, or struck from a flank - to hit those charging lancers and stop those deadly sabers... I'd be tempted to give lancers a zone of control along with a high attack/low defense to simulate those sudden attacks...

Unfortunately, however, combined arms in Civ leave something to be desired... Lancers then are only effective to deal the final blow against an already "softened" enemy. In a head-on engagement with infantry, they don't stand a chance! The first volley would mow them down, and unless they closed before the musketeers had a chance to reload, a second volley would finish them.

 

[Steph]

The lancer at display here is a napoleonic age soldier.

Not necessarily. This kind of lancers were re introduced during the Napoleonic wars, or just before, but were still in used (France or English army for instance) during the first half of the 19th century.

During Napoleonic wars, lancers with similar uniforms were used by France, Poland, Russia.
Prussian and Austrian lancers were slighlty different, England did not use any.

 

[Mackel-Loos]

Here are some pictures of Prussian light cavalry (Uhlans = Lancers)

You can see a lot of other plates on this site :
www.histofig.com - Uniformes

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

Not necessarily. This kind of lancers were re introduced during the Napoleonic wars, or just before, but were still in used (France or English army for instance) during the first half of the 19th century.

During Napoleonic wars, lancers with similar uniforms were used by France, Poland, Russia.
Prussian and Austrian lancers were slighlty different, England did not use any.

And in which wars were lancers fielded in between the end of the Napoleonic wars and 1948 ?? I simply named the age this unit originates from according to its uniform style and tactical employment.
Napoleon copied the Polish style to a T and incorporated many a Polish Ulan regiments into his Grand Army. The Uniforms during those days were prone to adaptations as France re-equiped its allies' armies with French style wear, a process that was reversed after the revolution(s) of 1948, when more and more practical modifications were made to military uniforms- from the 1840s onwards the trend in uniforms turned more to the "German" look, with cavalry units remaining traditional adaptation laggards.

@Makel-loos: Hey, I got the very same book

 

[LouLong]

The famous Polish lancers of the Napolonic Guard did not actually have a lance at the beginning. They took it after defeating Austrian Uhlans (Austria really was the country that kept the tradition alive) only.

About wars in which they fought :

- Krimean War (light brigade charge, I a pretty sure there was at least one lancier troop).
- Mexico : Maximilian used French cavalry using the lance.

Generally most of the wars of the second French Empire (and Napoleon raged quite a few !) between 1851 - 1870.

The English used them mostly overseas (India and against the Zulus).

France and Germany soon lost their lanciers during WWI but there were many still in the Russian army and after 1918 in the Polish army.

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

The famous Polish lancers of the Napolonic Guard did not actually have a lance at the beginning. They took it after defeating Austrian Uhlans (Austria really was the country that kept the tradition alive) only.

Interesting, didn't know that

About wars in which they fought :

- Krimean War (light brigade charge, I a pretty sure there was at least one lancier troop).
- Mexico : Maximilian used French cavalry using the lance.
- Generally most of the wars of the second French Empire (and Napoleon raged quite a few !) between 1851 - 1870..

Exactly after those uniforms depicted had dissapeared: There were no mayor wars pre-1848 were the unit depicted could have been employed.

The English used them mostly overseas (India and against the Zulus).

France and Germany soon lost their lanciers during WWI but there were many still in the Russian army and after 1918 in the Polish army.

In fact the first Military formation to cross the (neutral!) Belgian border in 1914, and thus starting the active phase of WWI, were German lancers, Ulans of the 2. and 4. cavalry divisions. They were embushed by local villagers and burned down the village of Battice. Later cavalry was mostly fielded against the Russians in the Baltic States and Russia- splendid terrain for cavalry operations in a time when motorized vehicles were scarce.

 

[BeBro]

Great units, Utah

 

[Steph]

Prussia created a first Ulhan regiment in 1741, but soon converted it into a hussar regiment (the 4th).
Then, a new regiment was created in 1745.

For Austria, the first regiment was created in 1784.

Russia had 4 regiment of "pikineéry" started 1765, then 6 in 1776.

After the Napoleonic wars, france created 6 lancer regiments in 1831, and 2 mores in 1837 (Napoleon's lancer had been disbanded).

France took part in the civil war in Spain, intervened in Mexico, Greece, in the Crimea war, against Prussia in 1870, and also had a lot of fighting in the colonies

England created its first 4 lancers regiments in 1816 (because of the valor of their French opponents).
English cavalry fought in Crimea, and mainly in the colonies (India)

Prussia kept 8 Ulhan regiments.

Side note:

Utahjazz7's ulhan presents several features. The traditional polish chapska, the plum in the middle, and not on the side, and the facing of the coat in a different color. That only country I've found that combine these elements was Russia.

However, the uniform could be used for France (Napoleon's guard, or first half of 19th century lancer), Austria (Napoleonic), England (after 1816), Russia, and Poland.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I'd like to point out that lancers were used in the Mexican campaign from 1860 to 1867. I don't think they were all that successful though.