Land reclamation

[footslogger]

From the hints it seems certain that canals will be in the new game. On the same general subject of land transformation, I have a vague recollection of Ed Beach saying 2 or 3 years ago that he would like to see land tiles reclaimed from the sea in a future version of the game. I think he added that it might be tricky from the point of view of naval AI. I haven't seen any mention of this in Civ6 discussions. Did I imagine Ed saying that? Could be an interesting special ability for the Dutch if they are in the game.

 

[Mustakrakish]

Don't know anything about that, but I think it would be rather unnecessary feature IMO. Never once have I though while playing "Damn I wish I could reclaim a tile from sea", compared to every game, where I did think "Damn I wish I could just build a canal here!". I'd prefer them focus and improve upon other more important features. Taking tiles from sea just makes positioning and importance of tiles less significant and that is not good IMO.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Yes, when they designed Netherlands for Civ5 they wanted to make Polder an improvement which converts shallow sea to land. But the engine limitations didn't allow them to.

It's totally possible we'll see such feature this time.

 

[Staal]

Yes the implementation of the Dutch was a really big disappointment. Would be great if they can do it right this time.

 

[bite]

From the hints it seems certain that canals will be in the new game. On the same general subject of land transformation, I have a vague recollection of Ed Beach saying 2 or 3 years ago that he would like to see land tiles reclaimed from the sea in a future version of the game. I think he added that it might be tricky from the point of view of naval AI. I haven't seen any mention of this in Civ6 discussions. Did I imagine Ed saying that? Could be an interesting special ability for the Dutch if they are in the game.

I would not count your chickens before they hatch with canals, not until you see them in game

 

[oddtail]

I'm not sure if land reclamation is something I absolutely need for Civ 6, but I think modifying the existing terrain would be a very welcome feature. If nothing else, if the engine/basic gameplay included the possibility, it would give tremendous modding possibilities, even if the unmodded game only had limited use for that.

And if terrain change in general was possible, land reclamation might or might not be one of the possibilities.

 

[Krajzen]

Yes, when they designed Netherlands for Civ5 they wanted to make Polder an improvement which converts shallow sea to land. But the engine limitations didn't allow them to.

It's totally possible we'll see such feature this time.

To be honest, I don't like this idea. On paper it sounds nice but in practice it could create tons of problems.
1) In civ5 every water tile next to coast is "shallow sea", so theoretically you could convert all oceans on an entire map to polder lands by expanding "shallow sea" area - so you'd have to somehow track which tiles were "original shallow seas" and allow terraforming only of these tiles, no further into ocean.
2) Conversion of land to water (on scale and with ease presumably incomparably bigger than real life Dutch polders) would introduce a ton of problems anyway - stupid AI closing seas and cutting off seas with land, separating entire seas from major ocean, human player exploiting polders vs AI this way, polder trolling with closing seas and fleets... Can you imagine Dutch civ on Europe-True-Start-Locations map building polder land bridge to England? It'd be completely idiotic, yet it isn't such easy task to introduce simple rules preventing it.
3) Presumably polders are creating rich-food-tiles, which wouldn't make any sense if reclaiming land in polar regions, or near desert coasts...

So you'd either end up with something ridiculous, or had to heavily restrict it anyway to work properly (still, I have no idea how you could prevent "closing water basins" with polders)

So little realism and so many gameplay problems, and ultimately those tiles would only serve as food baskets (flat green tile with no resources).

I think water=>land reclamation is one of those ideas which sound good on paper and are terrible in practice.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Yes, when they designed Netherlands for Civ5 they wanted to make Polder an improvement which converts shallow sea to land. But the engine limitations didn't allow them to.

It's totally possible we'll see such feature this time.

You could raise and lower terrain (with the former adding land tiles if performed close enough to the sea) all the way back in SMAC, so it should be fairly easy to do if the feature is planned early enough in the development process.

 

[stealth_nsk]

1) In civ5 every water tile next to coast is "shallow sea", so theoretically you could convert all oceans on an entire map to polder lands by expanding "shallow sea" area - so you'd have to somehow track which tiles were "original shallow seas" and allow terraforming only of these tiles, no further into ocean.

It depends on the implementation. I.e. if Polder could be done on sea near cost only or if doesn't convert adjacent ocean tiles to shallow.

2) Conversion of land to water (on scale and with ease presumably incomparably bigger than real life Dutch polders) would introduce a ton of problems anyway - stupid AI closing seas and cutting off seas with land, separating entire seas from major ocean, human player exploiting polders vs AI this way, polder trolling with closing seas and fleets... Can you imagine Dutch civ on Europe-True-Start-Locations map building polder land bridge to England? It'd be completely idiotic, yet it isn't such easy task to introduce simple rules preventing it.

If polders could be created right near the original shore only (see above), that's not a problem at all. Only narrow passages could be closed this way and with cannals it's not a game-breaking issue.

3) Presumably polders are creating rich-food-tiles, which wouldn't make any sense if reclaiming land in polar regions, or near desert coasts...

In terms of realism it's not more abstract than overall land distribution / improvements effect in game. Also, it's possible to implement different types of seas (cold and warm) and let polders of them have different effects.

 

[Hoss]

Way back in Civ3 or 4 I suggested

1) being able to build a bridge (road and later RR) over 1 or 2 water tiles (ex. SF Golden Gate). Vehicles and people on top, naval units below

2) being able to build a canal/waterway to create a navigable passage way across a peninsula or to open up an inland lake or sea (e.g. Panama Canal)

3) being able to build a tunnel to create a navigable passage way through mountain tiles (mostly because I think it'd be neat)


Maybe require 2 builders and 10 turns for large projects like there

 

[footslogger]

Don't know anything about that, but I think it would be rather unnecessary feature IMO.

Well, if I have a coastal city with some sea tiles lacking any resources (very likely) and a reclaimed land tile offers me significant bonus food or happiness, say, I would call that a very useful feature indeed. If Ed thought this a good idea several years ago, I'm sure he's had time to think of solutions to some of the gameplay drawbacks mentioned.

 

[Felis Renidens]

Reminds me that in Civ1 I could build roads and railroads on water tiles. They were completely useless though.

 

[Thormodr]

Reminds me that in Civ1 I could build roads and railroads on water tiles. They were completely useless though.

I believe they increased production, though, IIRC.

 

[wiggawuu]

I would not count your chickens before they hatch with canals, not until you see them in game

perhaps Great Engineers will be the only way a build a canal. I'm guessing it would only be one tile per engineer too.

 

[Felis Renidens]

I believe they increased production, though, IIRC.

Too long since I played the game. Not that water tiles had any production to increase.

 

[AriochIV]

From the hints it seems certain that canals will be in the new game.

Not sure what makes you say that. Canals are a much-requested feature, so if they were in the game, wouldn't Firaxis say so right up front?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Perhaps they are uncertain about announcing canals when they may have stopped cities from acting like canals (if Harbors are where ships are built, ships are never in a city)

 

[m15a]

Not sure what makes you say that. Canals are a much-requested feature, so if they were in the game, wouldn't Firaxis say so right up front?

I don't think so - not necessarily. Even though it is often requested, they won't have a huge impact in how the game works overall (unlike districts or the civics tree). And it probably wouldn't come up until later in the game, after the first 60 turn demo. So it's an easy thing to keep as a surprise later on.

I wonder if we'd even be discussing it if there weren't supposed hints about them being in the game. And even though it's been requested a lot, I don't think the lack of canals is a major concern on the level of "how will city states work?" or "how do barbarians act?".

 

[AriochIV]

The BAStartGameing guy asked Ed point-blank whether there were canals in the game, and here was his answer:

BAStartGaming: "Is there some new mechanic in Civ 6 when it comes to canals?"
Ed Beach: "There's nothing we can talk about. However, I read that all the time on the forums, and so I know that wish is there; and it makes sense, when you have that two-tile wide peninsula, it's annoying when you can't get through. We are announcing that Teddy Roosevelt is the leader for America in the game; he's most famous probably for building the Panama Canal, so, Teddy would be sad at us if we didn't have canals, so... we're going to have to think about that."

I'm not entirely sure what to make of that, but my impression is that there may be a Panama Canal wonder/unique improvement rather than regular canals.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The BAStartGameing guy asked Ed point-blank whether there were canals in the game, and here was his answer:

BAStartGaming: "Is there some new mechanic in Civ 6 when it comes to canals?"
Ed Beach: "There's nothing we can talk about. However, I read that all the time on the forums, and so I know that wish is there; and it makes sense, when you have that two-tile wide peninsula, it's annoying when you can't get through. We are announcing that Teddy Roosevelt is the leader for America in the game; he's most famous probably for building the Panama Canal, so, Teddy would be sad at us if we didn't have canals, so... we're going to have to think about that."

I'm not entirely sure what to make of that, but my impression is that there may be a Panama Canal wonder/unique improvement rather than regular canals.

I Could see it as a UA/UI, although that ignores the Suez

I would more likely see it as a city built improvement (like districts, but costing 400-1000)... It is interesting he mentioned the two tile wide peninsula... I am hoping canals won't be something a ship could enter from a neighboring canal (so they are max 1-tile wide).

As long as they must be on a coastal tile (so they are max 2-tiles wide)

I do really hope ships Can't enter cities anymore, that was one of the good innovations of CivRev that districts make reasonable. (so no 1000 BC canals)