Large Map and New Civilizations are now playable

A small note, The 1700 start, but it has always been like that. In Indonesia but a lot more neutral areas, each city in the 1700 start has 1-2 arquebusier, is that normal representative of the natives there, did they have those in 1700 Malaysia? As these are tribal or natives areas, or is this scenario tweaks still in the making (1.18)? Maybe more logical there be a lot of Malay or Javan natives here? Maybe also fun there be colonial natives troops as well for colonial powers?

Not much of an issue I prefer 3000BC runs, or 600AD.
 
Are you asking if Indonesian polities had firearms in 1700?
 
Are you asking if Indonesian polities had firearms in 1700?
Considering the VOC managed to conquer Java with something like 1000-3000 soldiers to a Javanese 20,000, the weapons that they did use clearly weren't equivalent to pike and shot formations being used in Europe approx. 70 years earlier.
 
I did the French and Dutch UHVs this weekend--both are unsurprisingly much easier on this map than they were on the smaller one (except France UHV 2). These were Regent/Normal, so it may not be applicable to the harder difficulties most people here play.

Dutch--Every start had me founding Protestantism, though it didn't really have an effect on the UHV, since I didn't get a Prophet for All Saints' until after the UHVs were done. The biggest thing for me was getting the Aztec Conquerors--Tenochtitlan was really valuable for the two spice resources, a lot of other good resources, and its good production being helping me get the troops needing for the second goal.

UHV 1 (Settle 4 Great Merchants in Amsterdam in 1745): Nobody discovered Economics before I did, so I got my first two GMs on the same turn. I didn't need to switch to Free Enterprise because of that, or build the Bourse to get the goal. I stayed on Clergy as well. While this could have been done faster, there wasn't any need to rush. If the general tech rate of Europe gets fixed, I imagine I'd need to do something to get the GMs faster, but the one from Economics really took the pressure off of this goal.

UHV 2 (Conquer 4 European Cities outside of Europe by 1745): I was a little worried about where the cities would come from, until Portugal helpfully started settling in Brazil around 1700. Musketeers and a couple Bombards vs. Arquebusiers, took four cities in NE Brazil with minimal losses, and Portugal capitulated.

UHV 3 (Obtain 10 Spice Resources by 1775): Two from Tenochtitlan, two from Amapa, two from the Tamils after building the Trade Company, and four from Portuguese cities in Indonesia that I traded for after they capitulated.

All three goals were met within a handful of turns of each other. One thing I've always liked about the Dutch game is that it's so condensed (even though it lasts a decent number of turns) that you win slowly and then all at once. Now that Indonesia is better represented, I wouldn't mind some goal that really forces the Dutch to go there instead of the more New World game I did, but ultimately Portugal's 3-Spice city was necessary for the victory, so I can't say I didn't need control over the area.

French--Lucky start here with Catholicism pre-founded in Paris. Rome didn't collapse until a few turns in, so I had some help with the initial barbarian wave in the south and east. Celts didn't found any city in Brittany (and I never did either, so other than some English culture at the end of the game it remained unclaimed). All in all a dream of a start. Paris has gone from being really starved for hammers to a powerhouse.

UHV 1 (Have Legendary Culture in Paris by 1700): In the past, I'd have to spend significant time at 0% Science to hit this. No longer. I did it like normal and after about 5 turns realized that it was laughably overkill. Paris was legendary before 1600.

UHV 2 (Control 40% of Europe and 40% of North America in 1800): I don't know if modifier balancing is enough to save this goal. The problem is that it's not hard, but a player who can achieve it has a dominant position long before the deadline and will have to keep playing past the point where there's any kind of fun or challenge. At the end of the game, I held France, Iberia, Italy, the Western Balkans, and southern and western Germany, after a Dutch respawn a few turns prior. In North America, I had to settle a couple cities outside my historical area to get the 40%, since the Americans were pressuring me culturally east of the Mississippi, but really there was no challenge or strategy there either, since the natives couldn't beat Riflemen and the other European colonizers weren't strong enough to do anything. I understand why this is an "in" goal to ensure that Prussia and America spawn before the goal is complete, but it felt like the last stretch was about not being careless more than actually achieving anything.

UHV 3 (Build Notre Dame, Versailles, the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower, and the Metropolitan in Paris by 1900): Easy. I finished the Metro in 1761. Europe is just so rich that when you conquer as much of it as you need for UHV 2, your tech rate skyrockets. Paris is now a production powerhouse with Nationalism Towns, but even before then I had enough hammers in the city that I didn't worry about building the wonders.
 
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I think a Dutch goal that focuses on Indonesia would be fun, especially now that Indonesia is actually good. Control X by/in Y goals aren't the greatest, but this one could be an actual challenge, especially now that Japan is strong in 1.18 (so far), and you only have one core city to control food powerhouses like Java and Sumatra.
 
Are you asking if Indonesian polities had firearms in 1700?

I mean, the Indonesia independent in 1700 start has arquebusiers, and 2 per city. The cities the Dutch control also have 2 in each of their 2 cities, they can never dislodge these neutral, unless you save and keep trying again and again each turn. The distance from Amsterdam is also massive to get an army there and leaves a huge risk if Germany or France gets frisky with you.

The Indonesians should need to have swordsmen, skirmishers and archers etc, not sure I even if they had X-bowman, but not muskets. But the 1700 starts need a lot of fine-tuning, maybe they need older type troops but a larger number? Maybe a larger native group instead of neutrals in Asia?

The colonial powers in the 1700s often have 1 unit in each city, and a larger stack in their capital of like 4 arq and 3 mortars, making a very slow dynamic start or worse a danger of steam rolling fast, only the single unit in 1 city. I'm a 3k bc starter even for late civs, like to start it up minimize and wait 10-20 min on my potato pc!

I do like the new map tons a lot and new civs, so that deserves massive praise! Also, I like the newer historical/conquest areas which are tons more accurate. (English can conquer west France, Viking all over the place etc, French control Italy), much love for that Leoreth! :clap:

I think independents in general are overtuned right now. Playing Vietnam and watching Khmer's cities with 2 archers each collapse into indies with 4 city defense II crossbowmen is painful.


They should become natives, not neutrals imv.
 
I mean, the Indonesia independent in 1700 start has arquebusiers, and 2 per city. The cities the Dutch control also have 2 in each of their 2 cities, they can never dislodge these neutral, unless you save and keep trying again and again each turn. The distance from Amsterdam is also massive to get an army there and leaves a huge risk if Germany or France gets frisky with you.

The Indonesians should need to have swordsmen, skirmishers and archers etc, not sure I even if they had X-bowman, but not muskets. But the 1700 starts need a lot of fine-tuning, maybe they need older type troops but a larger number? Maybe a larger native group instead of neutrals in Asia?
What are you basing this request on? Firearms were present in Indonesia long before 1700. I am also concerned about this use of "natives" those are state peoples with developed cities.

Why do you think the Netherlands should be able to conquer Indonesia with their starting units there in the 1700s when their historical conquest of the archipelago took most of the 1800s and only was completed late into that decade?
 
@Nyayr I'm gonna play good cop and graciously advise you to hold off on further engagement on this topic for a bit. Use the time to get a grasp on some solid history, then consider where you want to take it, if anywhere. I can assure you Leoreth expects the same diligence as he practices of us; in other words, weak stuff just won't fly.
 
Could you please not speak for me or attempt to stop conversations?
 
I was just wrong, did some research and had the wrong image of the time, as the Portuguese brought firearms in the 1500s. Seeing, they had basic fire arms, similar to Japan had in the 1600s. The way the VOC managed it was indirect it seems, and with trade posts, alliances and letting the smaller kingdom govern themselves etc and using them against each other. Something hard if not impossible to translate in CIV 4 concept.

I think the musket s12 with the advantage 10% damage over the arquebus s10 is a must, cannons are more a leap forward over mortars, with those you ruin. Polders, clearly a must to grow strong as the Dutch.

Wonder with Prussian Germany having conquest claim makes them more aggressive to capturing Paris, Amsterdam, Rome or even Moscow? Earlier on? As that is new, and something that not existed before and I not often seen in the 1.17 and earlier version Germany being hyper aggressive a lot, besides a few times, they expand into Russia and collapsed, due to controlling other people's cores and over extension. Is a conquest claim, similar, as contested was before in the negatives?
 
Yeah, the VOC's control over Indonesia is probably better represented by a mechanic like Victoria II's spheres of influence. Not possible in this game engine.

On Germany: I too have noticed they're a lot more aggressive. They regularly conquer Paris, Austria, and Poland in the 1700 scenario. They often infinitely exchange Konigsberg, Riga, and Vilnius (which Poland always builds despite being worthless as a city) in congresses with Russia. I haven't seen much aggression from the Russian AI in 1.18.
 
Yeah, the VOC's control over Indonesia is probably better represented by a mechanic like Victoria II's spheres of influence. Not possible in this game engine.

On Germany: I too have noticed they're a lot more aggressive. They regularly conquer Paris, Austria, and Poland in the 1700 scenario. They often infinitely exchange Konigsberg, Riga, and Vilnius (which Poland always builds despite being worthless as a city) in congresses with Russia. I haven't seen much aggression from the Russian AI in 1.18.
I hadn't played much 1700+ scenarios and wondered it, cause with the new larger conquest claims they got it should prevent them from just collapsing. Their core is a little smaller but also bigger due to the map, should hold 4-6 cities. For European dominance. Maybe with Austria refusal and maybe even Poland or France, they likely get a lot of troops? as a Bonus on top of the basic stack the Ai gets.
 
Oghuz begin spawn after 900AD, a lot of them. But i got only one pack of Keshik.
Well, if you can manage OE (and you probably can), and get some luck (i had 6,99% in 896AD, so i used WB to add 1 culture point in one city. And Arabia quick collapsed after I took Babil), with silk route you can afford BIG army and have good economy.
So cultural UHV most difficult after 1UHV, but can be done with Silver Tree.. Mongols on Regent\Epic not a problem at all. Next time will try Monarch
I managed to get 1 and 2 UHV and 1 and 2 goal in 3UHV in 600AD game (Epic/Monarch)
- it's extrem difficult game (lost count of the reload). 600AD game don't have advanset start (3000BC have, you can switch civics for free). Weak Samarkand, Strong X-bows in Persia, no time to build something.
I think we need Library or Monument in Samarkand to help with 3UHV and maybe 1 more worker or settler and 2 more Ozguh?. Now it's pain play 600AD game. Not fun at all))) And you cannot build settler in Merv and Samarkand, while Orduqent is your capital

So. Trade Philosophy from China and convert to Citizenship and Syncretism. Settle 2 started settlers on Silk road resources (Silk and Camels), use archers to bait X-bow from Herat, take it. Then go for Deli, then send remaining Oghuz to capture Itil and then send them pillage in Arabia and/or China. Maybe 2-3 pillage in India. Don't declare war to anyone, coz you dont have free forces to defend your cites from barbarians or capture barbarian horses. Cites on silk way build settlers (a lot), Samarkand build some Ozguh, when cultural building. Settle Mongolia and Siberia. Once you get 1UHV - declare war to somebody, and pray for barbarians take your useless cites in Siberia and Mongolia. Oh, most of the time you'll be running with 0% science (culture to grab 7% of land and get Refined Culture in second capital). in 900AD you begin collapsing coz Birth protection will end and you get huge OE. And do not forget to release the cities that you can (Thatta after 1UHV, and city in China after 2 UHV for exp)
 

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Regarding firearms in Indonesia: i always was under impression that Civ units reflect both equipment AND training AND doctrinal organisation of the military. Like, Legions are effectively just Swordsmen, but their training and Roman strategies give them extra strength points.

Same goes with firearms, tanks and other equipment. It's foolish to assume that weapons - a matter of utmost importance - weren't adapted as fast as possible by less advanced peoples; in fact, it's the easiest thing to get out of the said triad.

Obviously Indonesians and other peoples replicated/bought firearms very quickly after encountering them (like Incas managed to form their own cavalry units after they captured enough horses from the Spanish). Obviously that modern days Barbarians and Indeps own tanks, APCs, assault rifles and ATGMs, but it's their poor leadership and training that makes them better represented as, say, Riflemen or Infantry, but not Mechanised Infantry. Same COULD be said about Indonesians; i don't know enough (in fact, i don't know anything) about Indonesian militaries in 1700, but i assume that being Longbows or Pikemen rather than Arquebuses can reflect inferiority of their military compared to the Dutch, despite being armed with firearms.
 
i always was under impression that Civ units reflect both equipment AND training AND doctrinal organisation of the military. Like, Legions are effectively just Swordsmen, but their training and Roman strategies give them extra strength points.
This is my headcanon that I use when I see some silly "Civ" thing, like me still having a single Archer unit defending my capitol in 1900 AD. It's not that the military in my capital are literally only armed with bows and arrows, it's just that the military regiment stationed there is severely undermanned; Maybe the equivalent of a military police detachment.
 
Regarding firearms in Indonesia: i always was under impression that Civ units reflect both equipment AND training AND doctrinal organisation of the military.
But Indonesians had equipment and training and doctrinal organisation to use firearms. We know because their militaries included firearm infantry.
 
But Indonesians had equipment and training and doctrinal organisation to use firearms. We know because their militaries included firearm infantry.
I suppose you aren't presuming that these were up to European/Ottoman standards? Training and doctrines aren't boolean.
 
Arquebusiers are literally the most basic firearms unit.
 
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